I'm Contemplating Decoction...

[dj_van_gilder]

It only took me an extra two hours because I was doing an acid rest, and there was an extra thirty or forty minutes while I futzed around getting up to 152° (or whatever temp I was going for). I basically ended up doing like three decoctions instead of one...

Yeah, I had to do the same thing. I was going for a single on my Octoberfest but I didn't hit my temp the first time, so I pulled some wort out and just boiled that and added it back to hit 153.

 

[WortMonger]

I've never decocted before, but all the decoction beers I have tried were a little different in depth. Whether it is worth the extra time I really couldn't comment. i am sure going to try one when I get my lager equipment ready and brew my first lager on my system.

 

[Evan!]

Okay, so...here's the HBT page I've been looking at for direction...and it says:

Average 2-step method
For Belgian pale ale, German pilsner, Munich styles and Bavarian wheat beer.

This method takes 2.5 to 3.5 hours, depending on the grist.

* Strike temperature of 53C, stir well and rest for 20'
* Stir and take 1/3 of the mash. (If you use a large proportion of unmalted grains you can take less of the mash and add water and dry crushed grains to make up 1/3 of the total volume). Heat to 72C, rest for 20' (malt) to 40' (malt+grains).
* Bring to boil and boil for 15-30'
* Add back to reach a temperature of 65-67C, rest 15-35'
* Take 1/4 of the mash, boil for 15-30'
* Add back to reach a temperature of 70-73C, rest until saccharification is complete (30'-1h).
* No mash-out, start sparge immediately.

Help me out here: "strike temperature", as he's referring to it here, would be my protein rest temp, not the temp of my strike water...right? Is 53C a good protein rest temp?

 

[sudbuster]

I was just going to do a 2-step direct-heated mash on my amber lager on Saturday, but after posting the recipe, I'm leaning more and more towards 2-step decoction. It sounds like it'll add some time and effort to my mash, but if I wake up an hour earlier, I could make it work.

Is it really worth it? I've searched HBT and lots of people say it makes a big difference. The problem, though, is that I was planning on brewing 2 batches side-by-side, and this seems like it requires a lot of attention.

I'm torn. I really want to make a great amber lager, but I also have to make my basil IPA before my cinnamon-basil plant dies off...

Evan, you've got a great thread going here! I'll not bore you with any background and get right to the point. Although Dave Miller's book got my mash eff up, I am a Noonanite through and through. I do about 2/3 of my lagers by decoction. I use a 10 gal Rubbermaid cooler as combo mash/lauter tun. Here is my last procedure from my record book for a Classic American Pilsner. Your decoction would be the same (I checked your recipe ).

16 quarts water at 139 f strke and rest 30 min (125 f) Mash is like thick oatmeal. After 8-10 min into the rest, lift 1st decoction.

1st decoction: Useng a kitchen strainer, lift >1/3, <1/2 heaviest part of mash to decoction kettle. Boost temp ( stir constantly using a lifting motion) ( < 15 min ) to 158 f, rest 20 min. Slowly boost to boiling, boil 20 min. Return to M/L tun ( carefull of hotside airation) stir and bring temp evenly to 150. If you don't use all of the decoction, cool it in a sink with icewarer to 150 and add back to M/L. rest 20 min.

2nd decoction: Lift 1/3 heaviest part to boiler, Boil 20 min. Lots of stirring ( constant ). Return to M/L till mash temp of 158. Rest 60 min. Maintain temp with mini infusions of boiling water.

Mash out decoction: (this is really just to bring the M/L to mashout) Drain the thinnest part of the mash to decoction boiler and boost to boiling. Return to M/L raising evenly to 168 f.

Decoction complete. Total brew time from start to finished cleanup: 8.5 hours.

Good Luck! Have fun!

 

[Evan!]

Well under way. Woke up at 4:15am (I sh*t you not), made coffee and a couple eggs while the sparge water heated up. Mashed in by 5:15 or so. 20 minute protein rest, drew off 1/3 of the mash, brought that to 159f for a 30 minute conversion rest, then boiled it for 25 minutes, and I just added that back to the mash. We're now around 151f for the 35 minute sacc rest. It's nice outside, the sun is just coming up, and I love brewing.

Music:

Sparge heating and mash-in: Johnny Cash, American IV.
Protein and conversion rests: Toots & The Maytals, Funky Kingston
First decoc boil, Sacc rest: The White Stripes, Icky Thump

 

[sudbuster]

Well under way. Woke up at 4:15am (I sh*t you not), made coffee and a couple eggs while the sparge water heated up. Mashed in by 5:15 or so. 20 minute protein rest, drew off 1/3 of the mash, brought that to 159f for a 30 minute conversion rest, then boiled it for 25 minutes, and I just added that back to the mash. We're now around 151f for the 35 minute sacc rest. It's nice outside, the sun is just coming up, and I love brewing.

Music:

Sparge heating and mash-in: Johnny Cash, American IV.
Protein and conversion rests: Toots & The Maytals, Funky Kingston
First decoc boil, Sacc rest: The White Stripes, Icky Thump

Evan, Dude! ....... Where are you? We are waiting to hear about the brew day!

 

[Evan!]

Evan, Dude! ....... Where are you? We are waiting to hear about the brew day!

Not very happy right now.

So after an HOUR of the final mash step at 159-162f, I was still testing positive for stray starches. I was already like 4 hours into the mash, and I was tired of waiting around to see if the starches would ever convert. I doubt they would have. Not sure what the hell happened, but somehow, there was some amount of unconverted starches left. Bah.

Finished up the boil in an hour, hit my volumes spot-on. Shooting for 1.051 OG (assumed 81% eff), hit 1.054. So that's good news. What I am not sure of (not a chemistry major) is this: if there are unconverted starches in the wort, does that increase your gravity like sugars do? If so, I might be in trouble, because I've got no idea what portion of my gravity is made up of unfermentable starches. Anyone know the answer?

And salt on the wound: I put the carboy into my lagerator and got it chilled down to 54f, then pitched my rehydrated saflager. As of this morning, zero activity. I've never used dry yeast on a true lager before. I hope it gets going soon. I might take some of my liquid bohemian pilsner yeast and make a starter just in case nothing happens today.

Like I said, not happy.

 

[the_bird]

Wait, was that the sac rest you did 159&#176; - 162&#176;? Usually, the upper limit on a sac rest temp would be 158&#176;.

 

[Evan!]

Wait, was that the sac rest you did 159° - 162°? Usually, the upper limit on a sac rest temp would be 158°.

Nope. It was my final conversion step.

Vienna 2x Decoc Sched:

• 20 minutes at 122f
• Draw 1/3 of mash into a separate kettle, heat to 158f, rest for 30 minutes
• Bring to boil, boil for 25 minutes
• Return to mash tun to bring mash temp to 149-152f. Rest for 30 minutes.
• Draw off 1/4 of mash into separate kettle, bring to boil, boil for 25 minutes.
• Return to mash tun to bring mash temp to 158-162f. Rest for 30-60 minutes, or until conversion completes.

I was on that last step, trying to complete starch conversion. My sacc rest was prior to that---about 151f for 65 minutes. I just can't understand why they wouldn't finish converting. I've never ever had a problem with conversion on my traditional mashes.

 

[Evan!]

Question: if fermentation is having trouble starting at 54f, would it do me any good to take it out of the lagerator and let it get up to room temp until fermentation begins?

 

[Evan!]

Okay...all's well. For now. Took 'er out of the lagerator, let the carboy temp rise to 62f, saw some signs of fermentation, put it back into the lagerator...now she's going strong at 54f.

 

[landhoney]

Just curious how slowly you brought the decoc's up to a boil - how long did you draw it out?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I had to check "Other" Evan. Do decoction if you can and REALLY want to. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't want to ruin a brew by trying to do it in my cooler. So, if I ever have the ability, and I want to do it, I will. I don't think the difference will be big enough to matter.

 

[Evan!]

Just curious how slowly you brought the decoc's up to a boil - how long did you draw it out?

Um, relatively slowly, just to avoid scorching. I just applied a low flame and assumed about 10 minutes for step-up time.

 

[Evan!]

I had to check "Other" Evan. Do decoction if you can and REALLY want to. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't want to ruin a brew by trying to do it in my cooler. So, if I ever have the ability, and I want to do it, I will. I don't think the difference will be big enough to matter.

We'll see, I guess. I had the ability...and I just ended up watching the game on DVR, so it was no big deal. I was kind of concerned about the lack of complete conversion, but who knows...there were probably not too many of them left. I'm optimistic about the difference decoc will make, though. I've read plenty of testimonies singing its praises. Hopefully they're right. We'll find out in a few months...

 

[WortMonger]

I did my first decoction yesterday and it was a blast. I really think I might do this for every beer I mash out. I fallowed the maltose falcons brew club instructions and it turned out great. Very clear run off, extremely clean wort, tons of break in the kettle. I will keep trying this to already brewed beers to confirm, but right this second I am won over by 30 more minutes (I know we are all trying to shorten it) added to my brew-day looking like this.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

If you decide against the decoction- and I'm not saying that you should- then I would do a 90 minute boil. It seems like that tends to add considerable maltiness to the beer without too much additional complexity. At least that's been my experience.

 

[landhoney]

Um, relatively slowly, just to avoid scorching. I just applied a low flame and assumed about 10 minutes for step-up time.

You mean you brought it (the decoc/s) up to boiling in 10 minutes? In other words, ten minutes from flame on till boil?

 

[Evan!]

You mean you brought it (the decoc/s) up to boiling in 10 minutes? In other words, ten minutes from flame on till boil?

Roughly, yeah...it was already starting out around 120f. So, yeah, 10 mins from 120 to 210.

EDIT: I mis-spoke. I was at 120 in the mash tun. I took about 1/3 of the mash and heated it to 158 in another kettle and rested to complete conversion. THEN I brought it to boiling. So I actually went from 158 to 210 in ~10 minutes.

 

[the_bird]

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150&#176;, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

 

[WortMonger]

I can't wait to get into the decocts you guys are talking about. I just used one for mash out and didn't pull anything but wort to boil, so I didn't need to wait through sac rests. I want to try the real decoctions like you guys on my bocks and other lagers now that I have the facilities to do them.

 

[landhoney]

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150°, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

This is what I was driving at. I brought my decoc's up to boil in like 30min's b/c I was under the impression that you need to get conversion from all portions of the mash - or at least as much as possible. If you don't bring the mash up very slowly don't you risk getting terrible efficiency?

 

[Ryanh1801]

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150°, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

I keep mine at 155 for 15-20 min. From my understanding conversion is a must in decoction mashing. The reason you get away with boiling is because of the high concentration of sugars, ph as well.

 

[Evan!]

This is what I was driving at. I brought my decoc's up to boil in like 30min's b/c I was under the impression that you need to get conversion from all portions of the mash - or at least as much as possible. If you don't bring the mash up very slowly don't you risk getting terrible efficiency?

Yeah, that's right. See my edit. I mis-spoke. I didn't take 30 minutes as you said, but I went quickly from 120 to 158, then rested there for 20 or 30 minutes to complete conversion, THEN brought it to boiling. You need conversion on those grains (it's 1/3 of your mash!!) or, as you noted, you've got to be risking terrible efficiency. As it stands, I ended up with 85%, which is roughly what I typically get with a regular stepped mash.

 

[the_bird]

I don't think you risk getting ZERO conversion from those grains if you boil them without stopping for the sac rest, but it won't be as high. Remember, you're returning them to the main mash later on, at sac rest temps, and there's plenty of enzymes left in the main mash to do the work. The boiling process is also supposed to break up the starches more so that when the decoction is returned, there will be more conversion (which is why, I believe, efficiency is supposed to be higher with a decoction).

So, my understanding of the sac rest before bringing the thick mash up to boil is that it is strongly recommended, but not 100% critical.

 

[landhoney]

The boiling process is also supposed to break up the starches more so that when the decoction is returned, there will be more conversion (which is why, I believe, efficiency is supposed to be higher with a decoction).
So, my understanding of the sac rest before bringing the thick mash up to boil is that it is strongly recommended, but not 100% critical.

That last part about breaking up the starches is interesting, I hadn't heard that. That would increase efficiency, but what about the great maltiness and mouthfeel decoc's produce - seems like a paradox. Not disagreeing though, the mysteries of decoction....

edit>Maybe that's why decoction can be so good. You're getting maltiness from a very fermentable wort, normally maltiness is found in beers with higher final gravities/more unfermentables. Make sense? Am I stating the obvious? Dead wrong?

 

[the_bird]

I need to hit Noonan's book in more detail before my next decoction (about three weeks time). I'm sure Baron would chime in with the RIGHT anwser if he were around.