I'm as green as an alien

[Rhumbline]

Seriously I'm beyond baffled why anyone would recommend extract over biab. Especially on this thread.

Ignorance is bliss.

I'm almost certain that anyone recommending extract over biab who is doing all grain is probably a multi vessel/sparge brewer.

I'll weigh in since I'm one of the guys you're talking about.

I urge newb's to begin with extract because:

1. Doing extract batches requires the least amount of equipment.
2. Almost all of the extract equipment kit can be used in the BIAB process if he decides to move up.
3. Doing extract batches removes a lot of the variables. Limiting your variables makes troubleshooting much easier. You don't need to be concerned with grind, maintaining mash temps, sanitizing a bunch more equipment, multiple transfers of wort, etc...
4. Regardless of what people with $4k in equipment might think, it is very easy to brew a good beer from extract.
5. We haven't mentioned it but I also recommend bottling over kegging for the same reasons above.

...and I brew BIAB with a BrewBoss which I'll highly recommend to the OP if he does decide to move up but I remain convinced that he may would be better served by going the extract/bottling route for the first few batches.

 

[brewprint]

I'll weigh in since I'm one of the guys you're talking about.

I urge newb's to begin with extract because:

1. Doing extract batches requires the least amount of equipment.
2. Almost all of the extract equipment kit can be used in the BIAB process if he decides to move up.
3. Doing extract batches removes a lot of the variables. Limiting your variables makes troubleshooting much easier. You don't need to be concerned with grind, maintaining mash temps, sanitizing a bunch more equipment, multiple transfers of wort, etc...
4. Regardless of what people with $4k in equipment might think, it is very easy to brew a good beer from extract.
5. We haven't mentioned it but I also recommend bottling over kegging for the same reasons above.

...and I brew BIAB with a BrewBoss which I'll highly recommend to the OP if he does decide to move up but I remain convinced that he may would be better served by going the extract/bottling route for the first few batches.

Actually I have to disagree here on many things that you said.

How does a person make a 5 gallon batch of beer with a 5 gallon kit that comes with an extract kit? Therefore another larger pot is needed.

Multiple transfers? Explain.

I do no sparge BIAB and find anyone who is doing a sparge pointless. Unless they just didn't bother to purchase a large enough pot.

The only step that is different is lifting the grain. That's essentially the same thing as taking out the steeping grain except there's more. A pulley is usually needed.

Most people have a ladder or rafter and if they immediately start with BIAB there is no need for a muslin bag. So the things that are available can be used to lift the bag.

So as far as equipment goes. You need a mash paddle (which you could get by without), a voile or paint strainer bag, a method to lift the bag.

There are no other variables that you're talking about. Holding mash temp is the only thing which still has to be done with extract steeping grain.

I stand firm that extract is a step backwards for the beginner.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Actually I have to disagree here on many things that you said.

How does a person make a 5 gallon batch of beer with a 5 gallon kit that comes with an extract kit? Therefore another larger pot is needed.

Multiple transfers? Explain.

I do no sparge BIAB and find anyone who is doing a sparge pointless. Unless they just didn't bother to purchase a large enough pot.

The only step that is different is lifting the grain. That's essentially the same thing as taking out the steeping grain except there's more. A pulley is usually needed.

Most people have a ladder or rafter and if they immediately start with BIAB there is no need for a muslin bag. So the things that are available can be used to lift the bag.

So as far as equipment goes. You need a mash paddle (which you could get by without), a voile or paint strainer bag, a method to lift the bag.

There are no other variables that you're talking about. Holding mash temp is the only thing which still has to be done with extract steeping grain.

I stand firm that extract is a step backwards for the beginner.

You do a concentrated boil and dilute with water. A 5 gallon pot is plenty. Many people already have that size pot.

 

[brewprint]

You do a concentrated boil and dilute with water. A 5 gallon pot is plenty. Many people already have that size pot.

That is an extra step that would be confusing for a new brewer. Heck I don't even know how to do that.

There is no way that efficiency is going to be adequate doing that method. Even with a sparge I find that next to impossible.

My point is that if a large pot is purchased initially that takes out steps like what you're talking about.

 

[Rhumbline]

Actually I have to disagree here on many things that you said.
...

Well we can at least agree on that point.

 

[cyanmonkey]

That is an extra step that would be confusing for a new brewer. Heck I don't even know how to do that.

There is no way that efficiency is going to be adequate doing that method. Even with a sparge I find that next to impossible.

My point is that if a large pot is purchased initially that takes out steps like what you're talking about.

Efficiency is not an issue with extract. You just fill the water to the 5 gallon mark and boom, you're done.

 

[MrAverageGuy]

@Northern_Farmer - I started brewing again (after a 30-year hiatus), and now do 2.5-gallon BIAB batches on my stovetop. Skipped over extract, knowing I would get better faster if I went straight to all-grain. 2.5 gallons with a BIAB setup lets me (a) save on equipment - and, it's small enough to manhandle; (b) brew more frequently so as to fine-tune my process, improve faster, get more variety, and (c) at this batch size, I don't need a dedicated workspace in the garage (just a chest freezer for fermenting, and a place to store a few bins of gear). If someone hasn't already suggested it, you might see if you can find a local brewing club, and join someone on a brew day. With that, plus the tons of great advice you can get in this group, you can't go wrong!

Oh, and I don't think it smells up the kitchen at all...just smells like we're cooking something good.

 

[Kharnynb]

brewpint seems to either be very obnoxious or just not interested in other options apart from his own idea.

When i started brewing, all i had was a 5 quart kettle, a bucket and some small junk.

Extract brewing only needs a few quarts for steeping grains/hops and the rest of the water can be added cold straight to the fermenter.

 

[Kharnynb]

Biab requires a bigger kettle than extract, that's a fact, not someone's opinion.

People that I know stick with extract because they don't have room or money to get a big kettle(200 euro's or more) or cannot fit a burner/high power stove in their place.

Extract is perfectly fine brewing and makes good beer, there is no "don't want to brew" as you so arrogantly state.

 

[Rhumbline]

I'm in the bizarre position of having to report my own posts as being off topic and unhelpful. I think this whole exchange is unlikely to help the OP.

Mods, can you do some cleanup here?

 

[cyanmonkey]

I'm in the bizarre position of having to report my own posts as being off topic and unhelpful. I think this whole exchange is unlikely to help the OP.



Mods, can you do some cleanup here?

Lol

 

[specharka]

So the reason I'm waiting 4-6 months is to build a garage. I'd like to start sooner but I'm worried it will stink up my house and my wife will be furious. Would have to make a light lime flavored beer to make her appreciate the smell lol. Does it smell bad? If so does the smell linger? Might have to try the BIAB method just to get my feet wet and then move on up.

It's actually a genetic proclivity, similar to how some people have smelly urine after eating asparagus. To me, brewing beer just smells like baking bread.

 

[Pappers_]

I'm in the bizarre position of having to report my own posts as being off topic and unhelpful. I think this whole exchange is unlikely to help the OP.

Mods, can you do some cleanup here?

Thank you for the report. I've gone in and cleaned up the thread. As sometimes happens, one member was having a hard time with letting other members disagree with him/her.

Here's the deal: there are many ways to brew and no one way is the best or correct. A friend makes award winning beers with extract (he just took a silver medal at a competition I judged earlier this month). BIAB beers can be outstanding, as can all-grain.

There is no problem with members disagreeing with each other. But the best approach is to make your point, clearly, respond once if you need to, then let it go. Others may disagree, but that's alright.

Again, thanks for reporting that this thread had gone off the rails. Back to the brewing conversation!

 

[brewprint]

To the OP:

If you want to learn more about the advantages of BIAB let me know. I'm more than glad to help.

This one sided thread isn't going to be much help to you as you're only able to view 'some' points of BIAB vs extract.

 

[Pappers_]

To the OP:

If you want to learn more about the advantages of BIAB let me know. I'm more than glad to help.

This one sided thread isn't going to be much help to you as you're only able to view 'some' points of BIAB vs extract.

You do see that I left your two posts that had substantive information about BIAB? I deleted the posts that were merely combative and trying to shout down others who disagreed with you. The substance that you posted is still here.

 

[brewprint]

Here's the break down. I will try to clarify by not quoting anyone else.

Referring to 5 gallon batches.

If the initial large pot is purchased of >10 gallons and not a small 5 gallon pot for making extract very little is different.

Grain is mashed in a bag lining the pot for BIAB. Grain is steeped in a muslin bag for extract. Both extract and BIAB grains are steeped/mashed at the same temperatures and both have to be held. BIAB is 60 minutes and extract is 20-30.

After the mash or steep the wort is boiled with hops.

Then the wort is cooled and yeast pitched.

The only difference IMHO is a larger bag and a way to lift it. With extract there is such a small amount of grain that it can just be pulled out by hand.

BIAB has to be calculated for grain absorption and boil off. Extract is just topped off with water.

All of the same equipment is used except we're swapping a muslin bag for larger voile bag and using a larger pot.

I can see that if someone does not have access to a high btu burner then a smaller volume to do on the stove and then topped off with water (aka extract) is fine.

Truly that is the only time I could see an advantage to a new brewer.

 

[cyanmonkey]

Here's the break down. I will try to clarify by not quoting anyone else.



Referring to 5 gallon batches.



If the initial large pot is purchased of >10 gallons and not a small 5 gallon pot for making extract very little is different.



Grain is mashed in a bag lining the pot for BIAB. Grain is steeped in a muslin bag for extract. Both extract and BIAB grains are steeped/mashed at the same temperatures and both have to be held. BIAB is 60 minutes and extract is 20-30.



After the mash or steep the wort is boiled with hops.



Then the wort is cooled and yeast pitched.



The only difference IMHO is a larger bag and a way to lift it. With extract there is such a small amount of grain that it can just be pulled out by hand.



BIAB has to be calculated for grain absorption and boil off. Extract is just topped off with water.



All of the same equipment is used except we're swapping a muslin bag for larger voile bag and using a larger pot.



I can see that if someone does not have access to a high btu burner then a smaller volume to do on the stove and then topped off with water (aka extract) is fine.



Truly that is the only time I could see an advantage to a new brewer.

All grain is intimidating. With extract everyone has done the hard work for you. What if you miss OG? Then you have to troubleshoot and someone who does this casually doesn't want/is equipped to think about what went wrong. Water, pH, grain crush are all things I feel someone should be guided into.

That's just...my opinion, man.

 

[brewprint]

All grain is intimidating. With extract everyone has done the hard work for you. What if you miss OG? Then you have to troubleshoot and someone who does this casually doesn't want/is equipped to think about what went wrong. Water, pH, grain crush are all things I feel someone should be guided into.

That's just...my opinion, man.

Got it.

However ph and water I don't think make a difference. They could I guess but I just have not had to do anything with them.

Normally a place where grains are purchased can do a double or fine crush which is something that should be done.

Some of those things that you mentioned are concerns that I don't think need to be addressed for a first timer. There is a very good chance that efficiency would be 75% for someone trying BIAB for the very first time. I believe the chances of that happening are far greater than not happening.

 

[slym2none]

IMO, you're running way too fast before learning to walk. Or even crawl.

I'd get an extract kit, a starter equipment kit, and a propane turkey fryer. Probably less than $250, and you can see if you even like brewing beer. And you do it outside, and your wife would hardly even notice!

Building a garage with a temp controlled ferm chamber and malting your own barley, and buildng hop trellises. I mean, that's a dream for even a lot of seasoned home brewers. :fro:

Had I had to spend even $100 to start brewing, I never would have started.

 

[Kharnynb]

As i've told you before, i'm not against biab.

I even posted my own biab thread, and the one by death brewer in this thread.

I'm just against your whole my way or the highway attitude.

A kettle big enough for biab is NOT cheap, and can be a barrier to entry, but everyone who cooks has a soupkettle that would fit enough for extract brewing.
Likewise, people who live in small flats won't be able to use a propane fryer and might not have a stove strong enough for full volume brews.

my tread, all grain biab on a budget.

 

[whovous]

The original poster was originally contemplating putting off learning to brew until he could build a garage to house his brewery. He was also considering products like those from Pico. Now, he is talking about getting some reps in on a stovetop before he makes the move to garage. If he can afford a garage and a Pico, he can afford a bigger pot. I doubt that pot size is going to be the controlling factor in his decision.

 

[Northern_Farmer]

Well... sounds like I missed some action. Hope I didn't start a little war. No reason for that.
Either way, opinions are good and I'm reading everything and taking it all into consideration. I still got a good chunk of time to make a decision on where I will end up. Thank you everyone for all the input and time you're taking to help guide me in the right direction. Much appreciated and I will not forget.
So it looks like my wife donated a closet to me for fermenting after she came back from buying 48 beers for just under $100 :rockin:
Even talking to some of my friends has helped. I have a chance to go Brew with a guy in february sometime, sounds like he built quite the setup. Another guy I haven't seen in a while is apparently brewing his own and after christmas I will contact him and see what he can show me (maybe he would appreciate a hand). My buddy gave me some glass carboys and some other stuff like a bottle drying rack etc. that he was gonna use for making wine but never did.

Before I spend big dollars on a brewing area in my garage I will most definitely brew some in the house or maybe outside on my Camp-chef to make sure this is something I will love doing (pretty sure I will). My wife's stove is a electric smooth-top and I did see someone mention that the ceramic may not be able to handle the weight so my camp-chef camping stove may be my first one.

 

[Peruvian802]

If you have an outdoor burner/stove, I would suggest using it. You could easily get started with a 20L pot if you already have one. Extract brewers have been using them and 'topping off' in the fermenter for years. It's not the best way to brew but it'll get you started.

If you would rather wait to get better equipment, that's understandable.

 

[Kharnynb]

if you guys have a decent 3-4 quart stockpot, and you already have a carboy, you could just grab a coopers kit or such-like, 2-3 pounds liquid malt extract and just brew a real simple pre-hopped kit, just to see if the very basics are something you like.

If you like that, then you can look at if you want to invest in a burner and a decent 10 gallon pot for brew in a bag brewing.

 

[Northern_Farmer]

I'll have to check out what the local homebrew store carries. I just found a pot in my storage room 9 inches deep by 11 across. I'm thinking 3-4 gallons +/-
May have to try something small to get me hooked and speed things up lol

 

[Kharnynb]

2 gallon batches biab would be possible in a 3.5 gallon pot, then it's just a question of grabbing a grainbag/paintstrainer and deciding on a recipe

 

[Kharnynb]

how big is that carboy you got from your friend, and does it have a waterlock?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Sounds like you are on the right track with your brewing buddies. They will be able to steer you in the right direction regarding the fine structure details of brewing. You can do a couple of little experiments to see if you are tracking and then set up your brewery. Depending on who you want to believe, you can spend anywhere between .25 cents and two dollars American on a bottle. I think a buck a bottle is very reasonable for really good beer and you can save beyond that by buying in bulk. At that rate, you would pay off a grand worth of equipment in only 20 buys like the one your wife just made. Besides that you have plenty of time to get the kinks out while you are waiting to get your garage set up.

My wife has a really sensitive nose. She gets migraines and regular food smells will trigger her. I bought a BBQ for her to grill our meat on since doing it in the broiler or on the stove top is just too much for her to handle. The brewing smells that we have experienced are like cooking rosemary bread on brew day and the fermentation process smells like proofing sweet bread, but not as strong. The wife isn't bothered at all. Of course you can get different yeasts that I would assume smell like swamp *$$, but so far with Fermentis US-05 and S-04 strands that I have used, we have all really enjoyed the smells. I'm sure some of the more experienced guys can tell you which strands to stay away from if there is a sensitive nose in the house, but I think those likely aren't commonly used yeasts by beginning homebrewers.

 

[Northern_Farmer]

how big is that carboy you got from your friend, and does it have a waterlock?

I got two 5 gal glass carboys and they have some sort of contraption that goes in the cork. Haven't looked up what exactly it is yet.

Also got 2 plastic 5 gal carboys. one looks like it has sediments in the bottom. Might toss it, don't wan to to toy with unsanitary equipment, especially if it's plastic.

 

[Kharnynb]

get some starsan next time you pop to the brewstore and soak them all, including the extra bits in that.

If it still has crap, ditch it.