Ideas for adding a (hobby !) brewery/tavern/mancave to a house...

[brewman !]

I just got back from 27 days in Europe where I absolutely fell in love with beer (and wine) in a whole new way.

We are in the process of buying a high end house. We've come to like a certain house in particular for its layout, location, price, etc, but it, and generally others like it, lacks a bar setup in the basement. It also lacks a brewing space, though the garage is insulated, heated and finished. It has a media room, exercise space, bedroom, etc, in the basement but no bar and no pool table and really no place to brew.

My wife and I discussed this and she is sympathetic to my plight.

When I was in Bamberg, Germany, I toured the brewing museum and came across a very quaint micro brewery/ brew house (haus). I took many pictures of both.

Our desired house has a decent size back yard. My plan is to excavate a sizeable hole beside the basement of the house and create an underground bunker, probably 500 ft^2 in size, but maybe more joined to the existing basement.

We'd use this space one of two ways. Either we'd relocate the media room in it, adding a games room to it, allowing me to use the old media room for a bar OR it would house a Bamberg themed micro brewery/tavern and games area.

The idea is to give me a space to brew and a space to escape/entertain away from the more formal areas (ie main floor) of our house.

Not that there is anything wrong with the formal areas of our house, but sometimes the mood calls for more of a bar esque atmosphere, a place where people can be let their hair down, be loud, etc.

I'd like to make it a miniature version of the Bamberg tavern. Copper brewing kettles and fume hood in full view. Rough hewn timbers. Some sort of (heated) stone floor. Rock/brick arches. Somewhat dimly lit, at least when not brewing. A downsized serving bar with gleaming copper and several beers on tap. European brewing paraphernalia. Etc.

I'm not sure how to work in the pool table, or if I even want to. I think I'd like the space to have a table, for eating the odd meal and for playing cards and just as a space to sit around.

I do want a large flat screen TV in the space, for watching sporting events while enjoying the space.

I'm not going to build it right away, but I need to make sure that the house we buy is capable of accommodating my needs.

I'm not sure how elaborate to get with all this and where to draw the line. Its not like I'd spend night after night in that space. Heck, I'm not even a big drinker.

It would be used mostly for entertaining visitors, something that we'd probably do 3-4 times a month. It seems overkill to build a space just for that, yet I drool over houses with well laid out basement bars, especially when the rest of the house is a bit on the formal side in terms of styling.

We plan to keep this house for a long time. I realize adding a nano brewery to a basement is not going to increase resale value.

At this point any and all insight and wisdom into this sort of endeavor is welcome.

Thanks

 

[broadbill]

Based on your vision, I'm going to assume you have some money to throw at the problem. My suggestions:

1. Drop the house you are planning to buy, and buy one that has the space you need/want. Don't bother with the renovations.

2. If your heart is set on the house you described: Buy it, but don't build underground. It opens up a whole host of problems (mostly related to water/moisture/humidity). Frankly, the reason why you see so many finished basements is because those people don't have the money to build an addition and/or separate structure (myself included). Building underground gets even more complicated when you want to add your brewery. Now you will need to figure out ventilation, how to get equipment/ingredients/etc. in and out of the space, etc.

3. If I were to design a space like you are talking about, I would go with a separate structure, much like a pool-house/guest house. That way you can build it "to style" from the ground up, you can add nice features like an open patio or brewery space, and have it separate from the rest of the house for entertaining. The possibilities are endless with a separate structure. In a basement, you are already confined/limited once you decide how big of a hole you are going to dig.

My 0.02.

 

[brewman !]

Based on your vision, I'm going to assume you have some money to throw at the problem. My suggestions:

Thanks for the reply.

1. Drop the house you are planning to buy, and buy one that has the space you need/want. Don't bother with the renovations.

Easier said than done.

The lot size in the areas we are looking at max out at 50x120. There are limits on the house foot print versus lot size and thus there is a limit on basement sizes. Consider that we need a bedroom, media room, work out room and office in the basement and we quickly run out of basement room.

Furthermore, large houses seem to get exponentially more expensive. The house we favor has ~3200 ft^2 developed on 1.5 levels plus about 1500 ft^2 in the basement. Its the largest house we can find at a reasonable price. There are larger houses around, but in different areas and the price roughly doubles for the same build quality and 25% more area.

2. If your heart is set on the house you described: Buy it, but don't build underground. It opens up a whole host of problems (mostly related to water/moisture/humidity). Frankly, the reason why you see so many finished basements is because those people don't have the money to build an addition and/or separate structure (myself included). Building underground gets even more complicated when you want to add your brewery. Now you will need to figure out ventilation, how to get equipment/ingredients/etc. in and out of the space, etc.

In my experience, water/moisture/humidity aren't a problem in basements if they are designed properly. They need to be insulated and heated, with decent air circulation. The particular house we favour has 2 furnaces, one for each of the above ground levels and a boiler with heat loops in the basement and garage floors. If humidity is a problem, we can add a dehumidifier.

I thought that adding the brewery in a separate underground structure as a good idea for noise control and ventilation. The microbrewery I visited had electrically heated vessels inside copper jackets-domes, for lack of a better word. The domes contained the heat and the humidity. They brewed right in the bar without any issue. The air from the domes went into a little chiller heat exchanger where cold air caused the steam to cool and condense.

As far as getting stuff into and out of the bunker, it will probably tie into the garage with a set of stairs.

I am concerned about moisture issues in the bunker re ground water. A friend of mine is familiar with these sort of structures and says it shouldn't be a problem if its done right.

3. If I were to design a space like you are talking about, I would go with a separate structure, much like a pool-house/guest house. That way you can build it "to style" from the ground up, you can add nice features like an open patio or brewery space, and have it separate from the rest of the house for entertaining. The possibilities are endless with a separate structure. In a basement, you are already confined/limited once you decide how big of a hole you are going to dig.

Due to lot footprint limitations, a separate structure is out of the question.

My 0.02.

Thanks for replying. You brought up some interesting issues that I think I have a handle on but certainly warrant discussion.

When I asked the question in the original post, I was more thinking about the interior design issues, like was the concept too over the top, etc.

I think we'll be adding a bunker even if I don't develop the brewery theme. The question becomes how far to take the tavern theme and/or will it become old.

I guess I should add that we have two children aged 5 and 6 months... its much, much easier to have people in for an evening than it is to get out to a bar.

 

[broadbill]

Maybe we need some "calibration" here:

When you said high end house, I'm thinking something in the 1 million + range.

For a basement renovation that you were describing: I'm thinking something in the 70-100K range for the renovation, with another 100K for the brewery.

Are we on the same page?

 

[brewman !]

Maybe we need some "calibration" here:

When you said high end house, I'm thinking something in the 1 million + range.

Yes.

For a basement renovation that you were describing: I'm thinking something in the 70-100K range for the renovation, with another 100K for the brewery.

I think the total cost for the construction of the bunker and basic inside finishing would be about $120/ft^2. 600 ft^2 x $120 = $72K

The brewing equipment itself, without the copper jackets will be about $5K for some pretty nice stuff. The arches, beams, bar, table, TV, etc, will cost whatever they cost. I'd like to keep it below $100K total. Sounds like a lot of money for a hobby, but it will be nice space.

 

[rycov]

will you adopt me?

 

[brewman !]

Please describe your experience digging holes and doing concrete work !

 

[HHP]

If you are definitely a "bunker" already, by all means make it a beer themed one!

 

[Slurm]

If you enjoy it, go for it. There is no such thing as too over the top as long as you can afford it (don't bankrupt your family for a single add-on) and as long as you can handle the stress of the project itself. Some people spend years building out a space for themselves, others are frustrated after a week of work/mess.

 

[BenjaminBier]

I seriously sympathize with the idea of building underground for a german style beer area. Nothing says drinking an awesome german beer like hanging out in a finished, brick and white wash plaster "Bierkeller." I've often thought I'd want my man cave to look like a german beer cellar, full of arched nooks for sitting, hidden ambient lighting on the plaster walls, a selection of awesome taps.

But I also agree with others that it would be better to build this above ground. Even if you have the means, an underground area is going to have far more complications than something above ground. Think of it this way, if you have a moisture issue in an above ground complex, you remove some siding or roofing and fix it. If you have a moisture issue below ground, you have to dig.

Nowwww that being said, you can still build a "Bierkeller" above ground. Put in a single wall of windows for some lighting, make everything else look like a cellar. And this way you can design the exterior like a Fachwerkhaus!

 

[bluemoose]

Well I know the first thing you are going to need is a false bookcase hidden door to get in there. Nothing cooler or more impressive than a really cool hidden space in your house.
The only other suggestion is make sure you put in a urinal. With all that beer drinking, you don't want to have to go too far to make room for more beer.

 

[WhiskeyR]

When I was in Bamberg, Germany, I toured the brewing museum and came across a very quaint micro brewery/ brew house (haus). I took many pictures of both.

I don't have anything to add to this thread but I think YOU do! Post some of the pics!

 

[usafbeach]

I don't have anything to add to this thread but I think YOU do! Post some of the pics!

Seconded.

 

[Raider-11]

The house you are looking at has a 1500 sqft basement, couldnt you use 1/3rd of it for your dream brew house.

 

[kpr121]

The house you are looking at has a 1500 sqft basement, couldent you use 1/3rd of it for your dream brew house.

Yeah man, digging a cave sounds like an expensive adventure. Spend that money on some kickass hardware and equipment. Or look at different houses.

 

[bwomp313]

I also want to know how I can be adopted by you.

 

[Fid]

Well I know the first thing you are going to need is a false bookcase hidden door to get in there. Nothing cooler or more impressive than a really cool hidden space in your house.

AGREED! And check this site out for some inspiration. Some seriously bad ass stuff:

http://hiddenpassageway.com/

I think I'm with everyone else with the outdoor structure overall, though I understand the lot restraint issue. It just seems to me that a bunker would be tough to really get much of anything back on when it comes time to sell the house where as an outdoor structure could easily be converted from a brew house to a guest house.

 

[trevor_b]

Did you take any pictures of the brewery in Germany?

Your idea sounds amazing regardless.

 

[COLObrewer]

. . . . . urinal . . . . . . . .

+1000, our current mancave is 2nd story above garage with no plumbing, a real pain when ma nature calls.

 

[bluemoose]

Not sure what part of the country you are in, but in our area there are plenty of barns falling down. I would suggest approaching a farmer with a disaster of a barn and offer to take it down for the materials. You could use the beams, maybe hand hewn and the faded barn board for asthetics. If you could find some old tin roofing, the rougher the better for the ceiling, it would give it a very rustic touch. Those colors would meld great with copper as the copper mellows. There are businesses that specialize in barns, you could probably get the materials there, but up here it would be much cheaper to go knocking on farm house doors.

I have a friend that did something similar to the underground room, and it worked out great. The key is good footing drain around the structure. You can also skylight for light if this is going to be under the lawn. A custom made wishing well in the back yard that also provides light to your room would be my vote. You can use an air exchanger to keep the moisture down, and have the ability to vent for your co2 output.

Post where you are and maybe people can come up with some good regional suggestions.

 

[broadbill]

Not sure what part of the country you are in, but in our area there are plenty of barns falling down. I would suggest approaching a farmer with a disaster of a barn and offer to take it down for the materials. You could use the beams, maybe hand hewn and the faded barn board for asthetics. If you could find some old tin roofing, the rougher the better for the ceiling, it would give it a very rustic touch. Those colors would meld great with copper as the copper mellows. There are businesses that specialize in barns, you could probably get the materials there, but up here it would be much cheaper to go knocking on farm house doors.

I have a friend that did something similar to the underground room, and it worked out great. The key is good footing drain around the structure. You can also skylight for light if this is going to be under the lawn. A custom made wishing well in the back yard that also provides light to your room would be my vote. You can use an air exchanger to keep the moisture down, and have the ability to vent for your co2 output.

Post where you are and maybe people can come up with some good regional suggestions.

I think this is a great idea, but I'm guessing if the OP is shelling out for a 1mil plus house, and is STILL restricted by lot size, then any old barns are long gone. In other words, its probably a fairly urban/developed area. I could be wrong.

Question for the OP: back to the lot size restriction. Why is a separate above-ground structure a no-go because of lot size restrictions, but you are able to build underground? Maybe I don't understand what you are talking about when you say "bunker", but isn't a separate structure still a separate foot-print rregardless if it above or below ground? (i.e it still takes up space on the lot).

 

[kpr121]

I think this is a great idea, but I'm guessing if the OP is shelling out for a 1mil plus house, and is STILL restricted by lot size, then any old barns are long gone. In other words, its probably a fairly urban/developed area. I could be wrong.

Question for the OP: back to the lot size restriction. Why is a separate above-ground structure a no-go because of lot size restrictions, but you are able to build underground? Maybe I don't understand what you are talking about when you say "bunker", but isn't a separate structure still a separate foot-print rregardless if it above or below ground? (i.e it still takes up space on the lot).

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe he would be able to better utilize the current space if the additional basement was added up against it??

 

[BYOBKC]

It sounds like you might like some INSTEON stuff from www.SMARTHOME.com to go along with your Bunker.
(add)

 

[DarkBrood]

I would LOVE to see some of these Germany photos that you are basing your concept on....

 

[Dome555]

If I'm keeping up correctly you're building a bunker off the basement with a staircase directly to the garage. Your bookcase/door entrance (yes I'm assuming this to be mandatory of any bunker/bar as bluemoose mentioned) will be in your basement and separate from the garage entrance, I'm betting two entrances are actually mandatory by wherever's building codes anyway but for ambiance's sake I'd recommend hiding the garage entrance from the interior of the bar with another hidden type door.

From a brewing standpoint I'm imagining that if it's got a fume hood it's also got a full kitchen or at least a mini fridge and large sink. Considering you're building the counters you might as well just make the floor level cupboards insulated and temperature controlled for fermentations.

Agree with not putting a pool table in there, as much as I love the game you've already got a game room and what you're describing seems a better place for a poker table with removable wood top so you can use it as regular seating as well. You're also obviously going to need a dart board, just sayin.

Now post those pictures, get this thing built, post more pictures, and get our invitations sent out.

 

[huhwha]

Sounds great! If you go with the pool table, remember they take a lot more space than people think. http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/helpful_information/room_size_requirements.html
I love the game, as well as the beer. Just don't hinder the game by trying to shove a table in too small a space.

 

[bluemoose]

I think this is a great idea, but I'm guessing if the OP is shelling out for a 1mil plus house, and is STILL restricted by lot size, then any old barns are long gone. In other words, its probably a fairly urban/developed area.

You wouldn't have to drive too far from anywhere to get to the country. I imagine if he were in NY city, upstate farm country is only a couple hours away. A trailer and a weekend of back breaking work would be enough to get the materials, well and maybe a few home brews for the barn's owner.

 

[Pivzavod]

Dude if you want to have a nanobrewery inspired by your trip to Germany you gotta get a Speidel.

http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/...Braumeister/XTCsid/17se4qekaeat14q5hv5r0gb287

Get it with a copper hood to make it look more authentic. You can get 50 litre setup for like $3k.

I agree with others about building a new small house instead of a bunker. I read an article where they talk about a builder who can do a 320 sqf house for under 20k.

http://bestplaces.nydailynews.com/voyeur/family-ditches-mortgage-320-square-foot-home

 

[brewman !]

I don't have anything to add to this thread but I think YOU do! Post some of the pics!

I just got back from Europe and haven't downloaded any of the 3,000 pictures that I took while I was there. I'll post a gallery of the various beer related images when I do. I've also got a couple stories to tell.

 

[brewman !]

The house you are looking at has a 1500 sqft basement, couldnt you use 1/3rd of it for your dream brew house.

Except that its already in use for the games room, office, workout area and a bedroom.