I love DME...

[SwampassJ]

I love DME for starters. Happy hijacks and whines Mixed.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Me too. Sorry you got dragged into a mess. I appreciate your input about DME and your success with it.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Happy hijacks and whines Mixed.

You too. You are a pro.

 

[weirdboy]

I use DME in my bagels recipe.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Awesome! on topic and a wonderful use for DME.

 

[heeler]

Ok guys, I'm not gettin into any arguments........just advice from the DME guys. Whooo.....when you add DME to your recipe do you HAVE to add the DME to boiling wort or can I mix in a side pot (cool water)-- disolve and then add to my boil??? Will that change anything like flavor or whatever??

 

[unionrdr]

Sheez. This is an eternal & pointless argument. There are merits to both. So whatever way you choose to brew,have fun with it. That said,I boiled my Kent Golding hops (well,heavy simmer on electric stove & no lid) for 15 mins. Then took it off the heat,removed hop bag,& mixed my LME can & SDME. I got an OG of 1.044,good there. So far,it looks like the paulaner salvator doppl bock,but has a toasty/buiscuty smell with the smell of the KG under that. The LME was Cooper's lager,& the SDME was plain extra light from Munton's. This is gunna be an interesting combo for "kool aid". We're still using the same things basically,just not made fresh like AG. Which,I understand,some swear you can taste. But,live & let live,I say. It's all good...

 

[CidahMastah]

Hey Union - I agree with you - to each his own. I am not pushing any agenda, was only trying to let DME lovers (which I am) of something I tried (look at my profile, it 99% of my brews are DME!) - though that will change due to a bulk grain buy.

I am a DME guy who did one all grain BIAB batch and was amazed how easy it was.


on topic:

I put DME on my powdered toast.

 

[unionrdr]

Hey Union - I agree with you - to each his own. I am not pushing any agenda, was only trying to let DME lovers (which I am) of something I tried (look at my profile, it 99% of my brews are DME!) - though that will change due to a bulk grain buy.

I am a DME guy who did one all grain BIAB batch and was amazed how easy it was.


on topic:

I put DME on my powdered toast.

Thanx man. I was just trying to put things in their proper perspective. I may try AG eventually,but I'm gunna learn more by exploring different extract combos 1st. Not to mention,equipment costs. But that's another subject entirely. And cooking with DME,or even spent grains is interesting. I saw a guy on another forum make bread out of spent grains.

 

[Rev2010]

when you add DME to your recipe do you HAVE to add the DME to boiling wort or can I mix in a side pot (cool water)

No, it doesn't have to be boiling. As a matter of fact, I've learned just this weekend that adding DME to the boil can cause a boilover - which I had. From now on I'm adding my DME before the boil starts or at the very least I will remove the pot from the burner and add when it's no longer a boil then return to boil.

LME on the other hand I've never had an issue with, but I also take the pot off the burner when adding LME.


Rev.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,I've read on various forums that some add DME to the boiling water to do hop additions,& others. I was a lil leary of that,so I got a heavy simmer going (darn electric stove) to boil my Kent Golding hops for 15mins. Then took it off the heat to mix in the LME & SDME's. Working just fine so far...

 

[BlackJackBrews]

I got into brewing because of some really good AG brewers showing me the process. I really respect the AG guys, but personally don't aspire to do anything more than extract brewing.

It's just look cooking to me. I can spend hours in the kitchen and cook up an awesome dish and still use store bought stocks, seasonings, dry pasta, etc. True chefs would want to create those things from scratch. That's awesome, and a whole different level of artistry. But we are both actively involved in the cooking process, and both can create an incredible dish.

 

[mixedbrewer]

I actually add my DME at the very end of the boil. DME has already been cooked once when it was made, so boiling it again for another 60 minutes will might start to destroy what proteins are left.

 

[Rev2010]

DME has already been cooked once when it was made, so boiling it again for another 60 minutes will might start to destroy what proteins are left.

I doubt it has any negative effect. I've boiled my DME and LME for the full 60 minutes (bittering hop time) and everything's always come out wonderful. Most kit recipes also just have you boil all (or half sometimes for LME) for the main boil length. Main issue though for me is to avoid a boil over. So I won't be adding directly to a rolling boil any more.


Rev.

 

[mixedbrewer]

It will only be a cosmetic difference. Lighter color, better head retention.

 

[Rev2010]

It will only be a cosmetic difference. Lighter color, better head retention.

Right, but everything I've read says that only LME is affected, hence the late addition. I've read full length boils have no color affect on DME.


Rev.

 

[Indyking]

The boiling time of DME is one of the few things you can control during extract brewing. In theory, there is no need to boil it for the entire length, but doing so, you increase caramelization and complexity of flavors if it's a complex brew. You also contribute to a more intense color. On the flip side, adding it later allow you to get more bitterness out of the hops. So, it really depends in what you want. JP recommends boiling DME for at least 45 minutes. As for LME all you need is 10 minutes or so of boiling, it does not make any difference.

I was just reading that 3-4 years ago, any judge could set an extract brew apart from AG based on how it tasted. Nowadays, extracts are getting better and it's becoming difficult to distinguish, although the ones with the sharpest palates still can pick them.

 

[CidahMastah]

It's just look cooking to me. I can spend hours in the kitchen and cook up an awesome dish and still use store bought stocks, seasonings, dry pasta, etc. True chefs would want to create those things from scratch. That's awesome, and a whole different level of artistry. But we are both actively involved in the cooking process, and both can create an incredible dish.

really good analogy. I think that is why I want to deconstruct the brew process now that i have some extract batches under my belt (cooked professionally through college and after for a few years). Plus I am cheap! ha

 

[CidahMastah]

I actually add my DME at the very end of the boil. DME has already been cooked once when it was made, so boiling it again for another 60 minutes will might start to destroy what proteins are left.

Any proof of this?

I have never heard anything like this before, even from people who were doing 90 minute boils. From my anecdotal experience I wouldn't support this claim - I am with Rev on this one.

 

[mixedbrewer]

No proof, only what I heard from John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff on the Brew Strong Talk show. I will find the link when I have time to find which episode it was.

 

[CidahMastah]

Interesting - I do know a 60 minute boil is usually recomended with at least 50% Extract up front in most cases. It is necessary to stabilize the wort and achieve a "hot break", and doing a 60 minute boild on the wort does this.

This is noted throughout internet postings and regurgitated through friends. But I am not a source to quote on the matter.

I do know with pilsner malt, it is standard to boil 90 minutes to stabilize the wort via a hot break. I am not sure if there is a higher protien content in the pilsner malt or what, but I know the aim is to break down the protiens beyond a certian point before fermentation.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Its extract... the malt has already had a hot break when it was extracted. If you hot break it again you are damaging that many more proteins.

 

[Indyking]

Interesting - I do know a 60 minute boil is usually recomended with at least 50% Extract up front in most cases. It is necessary to stabilize the wort and achieve a "hot break", and doing a 60 minute boild on the wort does this.

This is noted throughout internet postings and regurgitated through friends. But I am not a source to quote on the matter.

I do know with pilsner malt, it is standard to boil 90 minutes to stabilize the wort via a hot break. I am not sure if there is a higher protien content in the pilsner malt or what, but I know the aim is to break down the protiens beyond a certian point before fermentation.

It is important to boil DME for some time, no question about that, but not so much to accomplish a hot break since most extracts don't even get a hot break. Most of the "hot break" was already achieved when preparing the extract.

I think Pilsner malt actually has a lower protein content compared to others, which results in a higher extract content and lighter color.

 

[Indyking]

Its extract... If you hot break it again you are damaging that many more proteins.

Hey, I'm sorry, you keep saying that and I can’t help it but interfere! I never heard of such thing as damaging proteins in extracts. Proteins are denaturated during boiling; so they already come denaturated in extracts. There is no chance of damaging anything in DME during boiling. The resulting amino acids from denaturation are important for head retention and body. Length of boiling will not interfere with the amino acid content of extracts!

In the AG world, the less modified malts don't have their proteins solubilized and readily available to go into solution for denaturation during boiling after the mashing process. That's why some malts require a protein rest. That's the neat thing about the AG brewing; you master it better when you understand the science that drives it.

 

[mixedbrewer]

I am just passing along what I heard on Brew Strong. When I get home I will find the podcast and post the link.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

I am an extract brewer and I like the use of DME but I boil it also I dont have a problem with it.
mixedbrewer man calm down if dont want people to give there OPINIONS dont post in a public forum.
BREW ON.

 

[mixedbrewer]

mixedbrewer man calm down if dont want people to give there OPINIONS dont post in a public forum.
BREW ON.

Here is another one. The fire has all but burned out and here is a guy trying to blow on it. Don't even bother. This thread is dead.

 

[Rev2010]

Have to agree a bit here with the damaged proteins. I don't care if it was said on brewstrong or wherever, I just don't buy it. People have full length boiled their DME for years and no ones changed "the method", so I'll take it as hogwash.


Rev.

 

[mixedbrewer]

"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

- John Palmer-

 

[CidahMastah]

Have to agree a bit here with the damaged proteins. I don't care if it was said on brewstrong or wherever, I just don't buy it. People have full length boiled their DME for years and no ones changed "the method", so I'll take it as hogwash.


Rev.

I agree, I think this is something some people said, thinking about it intuitively, but with no scientific fact behind it. If it were the case, why do all the kits tell you to through the DME or LME in at the start of your 60 min boil?

I concede that Jamil is knowledgable, but everyone is prone to saying things they "think" but have no proof of.

Indy King - See I thought pilsner would have to have lower proteins too (intuitively thought this).... But when I read why people boil for 90 minutes, the answer was to break down proteins to a certain extent farther. Perhaps this is a style choice, having little to do with protein content (i.e. you are right it has less), more to do with wanting less than typical protein representation. Looks like i have some research to do!

 

[Indyking]

"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

- John Palmer-

I don't see that saying anything about damaging proteins in DME with long boils. In fact, I think JP is talking about LME in that quote. I want see that podcast. Show us! Not that I'm going to believe it, but I kindda doubt JP and Jamil said what you are claiming!

 

[Rev2010]

"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

Was this from his site or book? It's also cutoff so I can't really gather the issues he was addressing. I don't have the book on me as I'm at work, but if it's the site or some other please do give a link. And why "some of the extract"? Why not all?? This still sounds more akin to LME than DME.

Even still, as much as I respect Palmer, just because he's incredibly experienced and knowledgeable does not exactly make a comment true. I can't even count how many times our top leading scientists have flip flopped on their advice and recommendations.


Rev.

 

[Indyking]

Indy King - See I thought pilsner would have to have lower proteins too (intuitively thought this).... But when I read why people boil for 90 minutes, the answer was to break down proteins to a certain extent farther. Perhaps this is a style choice, having little to do with protein content (i.e. you are right it has less), more to do with wanting less than typical protein representation. Looks like i have some research to do!

We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

 

[SwampassJ]

We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

Bingo with the 90 minute boil for Pilsner malts (and for some reason I want to say for a version called "Lager malt" sold in the UK". Oh **** off topic alert.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Its from How To Brew edition 3. If you guys dont want to believe it, thats fine. Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

 

[CidahMastah]

We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

Yup that is correct - chalk it up to a new AG guy. Not sure why I was recalling "proteins" instead of "DMS". They don't even sound similar! ha

Dag nab it

 

[Rev2010]

Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

I have, we all have, and so far I've only seen late additions recommended for LME, not DME. And the primary reason I've seen that listed for LME is because LME is a thick goop that will rest on the bottom of the pot and can thereby scorch and caramelize more easily - makes sense to me.


Rev.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Believe what you want, but there is more to it than that.

 

[CidahMastah]

Its from How To Brew edition 3. If you guys dont want to believe it, thats fine. Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

I actually add my DME at the very end of the boil. DME has already been cooked once when it was made, so boiling it again for another 60 minutes will might start to destroy what proteins are left.

But palmer talks about late additions like 50% at start and 50% at the end , not 100% at the end like you were saying. Maybe you confused the process of late additions as meaning all extract as a late addition? I am sure some people do that, but most consider late additions a split %age.

 

[mixedbrewer]

Since I usually do a mini mash, and use DME to supplement it, I add all 3 lbs at the end.