arturo7
Well-Known Member
You're right, samc, my bad.
Back on topic, what type of equipment is needed to test O2 levels?
Back on topic, what type of equipment is needed to test O2 levels?
I knew Aeration Equipment is a Waste of $...
- Thread starter RushN24
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I'm amazed (and not in a good way) by many of the opinions expressed in this thread.
He conducted some experiments to determine the efficacy of some but not all commonly used methods of introducing O2 into liquid, and concluded that of the methods he tested rocking and shaking was the most efficacious.
He used water instead of wort for his experiments, but addressed the probable differences in the DISCUSSION section.
If you read http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices you will find that his findings pretty much agree with hers.
I admit that there is a very small possibility that both of their studies could be wrong, but I think this is very unlikely.
-a.
He conducted some experiments to determine the efficacy of some but not all commonly used methods of introducing O2 into liquid, and concluded that of the methods he tested rocking and shaking was the most efficacious.
He used water instead of wort for his experiments, but addressed the probable differences in the DISCUSSION section.
If you read http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices you will find that his findings pretty much agree with hers.
I admit that there is a very small possibility that both of their studies could be wrong, but I think this is very unlikely.
-a.
remilard
Well-Known Member
The study wasn't bad, the incorrect conclusions drawn in the OP were.
OP
OP
RushN24
Well-Known Member
remilard, I don't think I drew any conclusions but please elaborate...
I was thinking of adding a poll for this thread just for a goof...What shoudl the options be:
How do you aerate your wort?
1.)Shake carboy?
2.) Air-stone no O2 system
3.) Air-stone + O2 system
4.)?
5.)Don't aerate
Give me some ideas, I'll post the poll up after I get some feedback.
A poll would be meaningless. Who cares how everyone else is doing it?
What we need is for someone to step forward and perform some tests. Someone with some testing equipment.
Surely in this day and age of homebrewing, there must be someone who can do this? Maybe the guys on the radio show can find a scientist with some stuff that can measure the DO in wort...
What we need is for someone to step forward and perform some tests. Someone with some testing equipment.
Surely in this day and age of homebrewing, there must be someone who can do this? Maybe the guys on the radio show can find a scientist with some stuff that can measure the DO in wort...
Measuring DO in any dilute aqueous solution isn't hard. Hach makes a nice hand-held DO meter for $648.
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arturo7
Well-Known Member
I happen to know one of our HBT folks who owns a DO meter. I'll give y'all one guess as to who it is 
He's also quite the experimental type, so I'm sure we'll hear some of his research in the future. Unless he writes a book instead.
He's also quite the experimental type, so I'm sure we'll hear some of his research in the future. Unless he writes a book instead.
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I happen to know one of our HBT folks who owns a DO meter. I'll give y'all one guess as to who it is
He's also quite the experimental type, so I'm sure we'll hear some of his research in the future. Unless he writes a book instead.
well, will the book be in english or german?
Rhoobarb
Well-Known Member
Real world results will tell me everything I need to know. I used to rock the carboy, then got sick & tired of doing it - plus it's tricky with Better Bottles. I got a plastic whip like this, chuck it in a drill, have a good ol' time whippin' it up and have seen much shorter lag times to fermentation. As was suggested earlier, split a ten gal. batch into two carboys, aerate one as much as possible and the other as little as possible and watch the results.
If you've ever split a batch and had one carboy where the yeast wasn't viable (you took a chance, even though the starter didn't seem to take off like you had hoped, you used dry yeast past it's prime, you got some of that bad lot of Notty), then added yeast a few days later, you know that it never takes off like the healthy batch that got the yeast pitched right after aeration.
Carry on.
If you've ever split a batch and had one carboy where the yeast wasn't viable (you took a chance, even though the starter didn't seem to take off like you had hoped, you used dry yeast past it's prime, you got some of that bad lot of Notty), then added yeast a few days later, you know that it never takes off like the healthy batch that got the yeast pitched right after aeration.
Carry on.
remilard
Well-Known Member
Does kaiser even post here anymore? I think ya'll ran him off, he posts more frequently elsewhere.
Either way, the tests have been done.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm
Either way, the tests have been done.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm
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Since when should we trust the yeast labs? Next thing you know and people will stop making starters from their "pitchable" vials and smack packs.
Fault lines will crack, Volcanoes erupt, Dinosaurs re-emerge, it'll be chaos.
arturo7
Well-Known Member
Does a shorter lag time translate to a better beer? Or, specifically, does it indicate a higher level of DO?
Beernik
Well-Known Member
Shorter lag time can't equal more DO. I don't put a hell of a lot of effort into aeration and almost all my lag times are less than 16 hours.
With my Export I didn't make a starter or put any extra effort into aerating and the airlock was popping in under 5 hours.
If I ever run I into issues with insufficient aeration, it most likely shows up in stuck fermentations. But pitching a new starter almost always fixes that.
I might be able to access some DO meters. However, I'd never put them in anything that I was planning on drinking. They tend to get used downstream of industrial or municipal wastewater dischargers.
Update: talked to our lab guys. I could probably bring samples in on the weekend and test them. But it would mean making a sacrificial batch because the probe would infect enything it was put in. And at best I could do a curve for simple supply of pure O2 through a hose.
The remaining problem: I don't have an O2 supply unless I steal one of my mother's oxygen tank. If I'm not going to hell already, I'd be sure to secure a spot there if I tried it.
Anyone else in SLC have an O2 supply?
With my Export I didn't make a starter or put any extra effort into aerating and the airlock was popping in under 5 hours.
If I ever run I into issues with insufficient aeration, it most likely shows up in stuck fermentations. But pitching a new starter almost always fixes that.
I might be able to access some DO meters. However, I'd never put them in anything that I was planning on drinking. They tend to get used downstream of industrial or municipal wastewater dischargers.
Update: talked to our lab guys. I could probably bring samples in on the weekend and test them. But it would mean making a sacrificial batch because the probe would infect enything it was put in. And at best I could do a curve for simple supply of pure O2 through a hose.
The remaining problem: I don't have an O2 supply unless I steal one of my mother's oxygen tank. If I'm not going to hell already, I'd be sure to secure a spot there if I tried it.
Anyone else in SLC have an O2 supply?
Why a sacrificial batch? You don't need to test five gallons' worth...
arturo7
Well-Known Member
Also, you probably want to shake/splash/aerate immediately before testing.
Finally had a chance to read the study.
Just bad, lazy "science".
1. Only did one trial for each method; why? You really drawing scientific conclusions without multiple tests
2. Why not just add a little DME to the water, to similate a typical wort? There's no reason to expect that wort is going to behave identically to pure water. Lazy to not at least make a simple wort.
3. Why not do a full, 60-minute boil? If you're doing an experiment related to brewing, why not actually, you know, simulate brewing conditions? Why not start our with water (or ideally, WORT) that's likely had almost all of its O2 driven off?
4. Why not study the use of pure O2, rather than just aerating? The author acknowledges as such:
Not buying the argument that "well, you POSSIBLY could add too much O2" as being a reason not to use pure O2. Not much risk of that with a 30-second hit from an O2 canister.
In the end, what's the conclusion? You can sufficiently aerate (water) by shaking a carboy for five or ten minutes? Who the **** wants to shake a carboy for five or ten minutes?
Just a horribly flawed study. Doesn't actually test wort or brewing conditions. Intentionally excludes valid methods. Does not run multiple experiments. Inconclusive conclusion.
The only thing this study proves is that just because you include a graph does not make your paper any more valid.
Just bad, lazy "science".
1. Only did one trial for each method; why? You really drawing scientific conclusions without multiple tests
2. Why not just add a little DME to the water, to similate a typical wort? There's no reason to expect that wort is going to behave identically to pure water. Lazy to not at least make a simple wort.
3. Why not do a full, 60-minute boil? If you're doing an experiment related to brewing, why not actually, you know, simulate brewing conditions? Why not start our with water (or ideally, WORT) that's likely had almost all of its O2 driven off?
4. Why not study the use of pure O2, rather than just aerating? The author acknowledges as such:
Not buying the argument that "well, you POSSIBLY could add too much O2" as being a reason not to use pure O2. Not much risk of that with a 30-second hit from an O2 canister.
In the end, what's the conclusion? You can sufficiently aerate (water) by shaking a carboy for five or ten minutes? Who the **** wants to shake a carboy for five or ten minutes?
Just a horribly flawed study. Doesn't actually test wort or brewing conditions. Intentionally excludes valid methods. Does not run multiple experiments. Inconclusive conclusion.
The only thing this study proves is that just because you include a graph does not make your paper any more valid.
Beernik
Well-Known Member
I'd have to sacrifice anything I took into the lab because of what the lab normally tests. I'd have to split off at least a gallon for each aeration method. I'd probably have to do the aeration at the lab. Which means each gallon I take there will go down the drain.
Saturating the wort with air before the experiment wouldn't be difficult. I'd have to drive it 30 minutes from my house to the lab. Which raises an interesting idea. Instead of rocking the carboy, I could strap it in the cargo area of my car and take it for a ride.
I've been thinking about a pure O2 experiment some more. It really isn't an interesting experiment to figure out the curve for transferring pure O2 into a wort or water. If you assume 100% efficiency, it's a straight forward calculation based upon the flow rate of O2 and the desired concentration of DO.
Efficiency will primarily depend upon the size of the bubble. The bigger the bubble, the less efficient.
To estimate your efficiency you could use a plastic bucket with two holes drilled in it. Run your O2 line into one of the holes. Slap an open airlock with a ballon on the end of it on the other side. After aerating:
Volume O2(in) - Volume O2(ballon) = Volume O2(wort)
Then use the Volume O2(wort) to calculate the concentration of DO. Of course you'd need some sort of pressure gage on the ballon or some way to estimate it.
The interesting experiment would be determining DO vs. Fermentation Time and DO vs. Beer Quality. That's really what people would be most interested in. And besides not having the O2, I don't have the fermentation control that would be necessary to do that experiment.
Saturating the wort with air before the experiment wouldn't be difficult. I'd have to drive it 30 minutes from my house to the lab. Which raises an interesting idea. Instead of rocking the carboy, I could strap it in the cargo area of my car and take it for a ride.
I've been thinking about a pure O2 experiment some more. It really isn't an interesting experiment to figure out the curve for transferring pure O2 into a wort or water. If you assume 100% efficiency, it's a straight forward calculation based upon the flow rate of O2 and the desired concentration of DO.
Efficiency will primarily depend upon the size of the bubble. The bigger the bubble, the less efficient.
To estimate your efficiency you could use a plastic bucket with two holes drilled in it. Run your O2 line into one of the holes. Slap an open airlock with a ballon on the end of it on the other side. After aerating:
Volume O2(in) - Volume O2(ballon) = Volume O2(wort)
Then use the Volume O2(wort) to calculate the concentration of DO. Of course you'd need some sort of pressure gage on the ballon or some way to estimate it.
The interesting experiment would be determining DO vs. Fermentation Time and DO vs. Beer Quality. That's really what people would be most interested in. And besides not having the O2, I don't have the fermentation control that would be necessary to do that experiment.
Parkinson1963
Well-Known Member
Bringing water to a boil for several minutes will effectively drive of most of the oxygen. Oxygen dissolves in water inverse to the temp. (i.e. cold water more oxygen). I agree no repeatable tests leave much to be desired.
As a control the cooled water should have had the O2 measured over time just to see how much O2 the water will absorb out of the atmosphere just through absorption.
Also as noted above the freshly boiled water should have ahd the O2 level measured to get a true time =0 line reading.
As a control the cooled water should have had the O2 measured over time just to see how much O2 the water will absorb out of the atmosphere just through absorption.
Also as noted above the freshly boiled water should have ahd the O2 level measured to get a true time =0 line reading.
-TH-
Well-Known Member
Bingo. I want to know this first. Then I'll worry about how to get there.
Now, this raises an interesting question.
If aerating with an O2 stone raises the DO level in the wort to a supersaturation level, than that means that Oxygen is going to start coming out of solution. How long does it take for the wort to drop back down to equilibrium?
For that matter, are you going to start to see bubbling from the airlock because of oxygen escaping the supersaturated solution? Could it be that reduced lag times aren't the result of the yeast finishing their reproductive phase sooner, but instead you are simply seeing oxygen coming out of solution instead of CO2?
If I had an O2 stone, I would go home tonight and aerate a carboy full of plain water, and see if I get bubbling from the airlock in the next 24 hours...Actually, I've got a couple O2 tanks for an oxy torch...if I don't have a stone, and say I just make a simple diffuser out of a bit of copper tubing with some holes in it, how long should I aerate for to achieve a good 'oversaturation'?
Not long.
I think the oxygen issue for homebrewers is WAY overstressed. Big breweries
use closed systems, so that for instance after the boil the liquid is pumped
through pipes through the chiller and then into the fermenter, they need to
put some O2 in for optimal yeast fermentation initiation. Once fermentation
begins the O2 not taken up by the yeast is blown out completely by the
CO2 that forms. But homebrewers generally just cool their brew pot in a
sink, or insert a wort chiller into the wort which is exposed to air, so O2 is
absorbed. Transfer to the fermentation vessel involves splashing and even if
done really smoothly, the liquid flowing into the fermentation vessel picks up
O2. As soon as the heat is turned off, the wort begins absorbing 02. So
unless you've got a fancy closed system, you shouldn't have to worry
about it. And if you are adding an actively fermenting slurry to the wort,
instead of dry yeast or a liquid slurry that isn't fermenting, you shouldn't
have to worry about it at all. The initial O2 is necessary to get things
started only.
Ray
