I have the 1.02 curse...

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tlarham

tlarham

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My past two beers have not finished lower than 1.02...they never taste sweet, but that damned hydrometer won't sink past the 1.02 line. My latest stout was just racked to secondary after a week -- 1.02! :mad:

My past two beers:

Specs Below:

American Amber
Code: 
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU      
7.50 lb       Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        66.08 %       
1.50 lb       Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)              Grain        13.22 %       
1.00 lb       Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)     Grain        8.81 %        
0.75 lb       Victory Malt (25.0 SRM)                   Grain        6.61 %        
0.50 lb       Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)              Grain        4.41 %        
0.10 lb       Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)           Grain        0.88 %        
1.75 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (60 min)                Hops         23.3 IBU      
1.50 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (30 min)                Hops         15.4 IBU      
1.00 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (1 min)                 Hops         0.6 IBU       
1 Pkgs        American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272)

O.G. 1.055
F.G. 1.020


Dry Stout
Code: 
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU      
7.50 lb       Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        66.08 %       
1.50 lb       Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)              Grain        13.22 %       
1.00 lb       Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)     Grain        8.81 %        
0.75 lb       Victory Malt (25.0 SRM)                   Grain        6.61 %        
0.50 lb       Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)              Grain        4.41 %        
0.10 lb       Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)           Grain        0.88 %        
1.75 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (60 min)                Hops         23.3 IBU      
1.50 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (30 min)                Hops         15.4 IBU      
1.00 oz       Cascade [4.17 %]  (1 min)                 Hops         0.6 IBU       
1 Pkgs        American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272)

O.G. 1.051
F.G. Just racked to secondary...1.02. I pitched a fresh pack of Notty to see if I couldn't get a few more points off.

Both beers were mashed at about 152-153...fermented at 68. I used a starter with the American Ale II, and rehydrated according to spec for the Notty.

Why oh why?

-- T.
 
First things first, calibrate your themometer, and I see no real reason for the carapils in your brews.
 
I have to agree with the Schnitz, calibrate your thermometer in boiling water, sounds like it is reading low, so you are mashing higher than you think.

Second, your two recipes look suspiciously similar, a posting error perhaps?

Third, I would back off on the unfermentables, carapils isn't very fermentable, and a pound of c-40 will lend to a higher FG as well.
 
My mistake on the second beer:

Stout
Code: 
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU      
5.50 lb       Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)          Grain        61.11 %       
1.50 lb       Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)                  Grain        16.67 %       
1.00 lb       Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)                Grain        11.11 %       
0.50 lb       Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)    Grain        5.56 %        
0.50 lb       Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM)                Grain        5.56 %        
2.60 oz       Fuggles [5.10 %]  (60 min)                Hops         44.5 IBU      
1 Pkgs        Nottingham (Danstar #-)                   Yeast-Ale
 
Do you oxygenate before pitching? Since I started oxygenating I have no trouble hitting FG...in fact sometimes my beers attenuate a little too much. I also always primary 2-3 weeks.
 
Care to clarify on the "don't secondary?"

Wort is well oxygenated. Each beer spends a 7-10 days in primary before the consistent hydrometer readings inspire the secondary.

Hrm...I wonder if my hydrometer is broken...
 
What are your fermentation temps. Beers tend to give up around 1.020 when they get cold ( in my experience ). Do you aerate?
 
How large is the starter and what was viability of the yeast before you pitched into the starter wort?
 
Putting beer in secondary is outdated theory that needs to be brought out back and shot. It helps cleanliness when racking onto fruit or dry hopping, but that is its only purpose. Leave it on the yeast until the job is done. If the job never finishes, then worry about process.
 
youre not letting it sit on primary long enough. yeast could still be working on a few extra points at the end even after 1 -2 weeks.
 
Just considering your first recipe: if you were steeping and
getting only 50% efficiency on the specialty grains, I calculate
you would still be getting 8 points just from that. You are mashing
so you are probably getting higher extract efficiency and so
you are getting even more unfermentable points out of them.

Most of these high fg problems are due to one of 2 things:
Very high initial gravities (people post here wondering why
their og 1.090 beer only goes down to 1.020) or in your case,
a lot of unfermentables due to large amounts of specialty
grains, which is probably what's going on in your case.

Ray
 
All very good tips, aerate your wort sufficiently, keep a close eye on temperature, and once again calibrate your thermometer, however when doing so, check your elevation where you live and calculate the temperature of boiling water at that elevation.

For instance we all know that water boils at ~212F, but that is for sea level,here in Tucson where I live we are at about 2000ft ASL, so water here boils at roughly 208-209F, so be sure to take elevation into consideration when calibrating your thermometer.

Also, calibrate your hydrometer, put some distilled water in the fridge and get it down to 60F or 68F (whatever your hydrometer says it is calibrated at) and make certain your hydromter reads 1.000 at that temperature.

As far as secondary goes, IMO, it just opens the door for infections, all you are really doing when secondarying a beer is clarifying it, the phrase secondary fermentation is a misnomer, usually there isn't any fermentation occurring, unless you are racking onto fruit, adding sugar, or your fermentation stalled before you racked, and started again after rousing the yeat during racking.

Extended primary fermentations can lead to a cleaner finished product because the yeast will metabolize some of the compounds that can lead to off flavors once the brunt of fermentation is complete. So, secondary by all means if you wish, but make 6 gallons, don't touch it for a month, and rack off 5 without disturbing your yeast cake, and clarity shouldn't be an issuue.

Oh yeah, and azscoob mentioned cut back on your unfermentables, if you are using CaraPils in all of your recipes then that could be one of the reasons your gravity is finishing higher than expected. The amount of Crystal/Caramel you have in your recipes is sufficient for head retention and foam stability, considering that is the reason you are adding the CaraPils.

Anyhow,good luck on your future brews, keep these tips & tricks in mind, and make sure all of your equipment is calibrated, and I'm certain your 1.020 gravities will be a thing of the past.
 
Schnitzengiggle said:
Also, calibrate your hydrometer, put some distilled water in the fridge and get it down to 60F and make certain your hydromter reads 1.000 at that temperature.
Click to expand...

This. 2 hydrometers, both off by a good margin. One was brand new. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's right.


_
 
Thanks for all the tips everyone!

Last question: barring misreading hydrometers and thermometers, I'm thinking the unfermentables are the issue. So...

How do you all go about recipe design and specialty grains? The Amber has a lot, no doubt (Note to self...no more crystal + carapils)...but the stout only has the .5 of crystal...that doesn't seem excessive, does it?

Which grains do you all consider the worse offenders as far as unfermentables?

Thanks again!

Now to check my tools...
 
I think roasted barley adds very little fermentable sugars, it is a highly kilned unmalted grain used to add flavor. I may be off in my thinking here someone may want to confirm or deny this.
 
I dont understand the hate for the secondary. I have only had good results from racking to secondary. My beer is clearer and crisper... Primary until the FG stays put for 3 days (normally 2 weeks) I dont keep it in secondary for very long (Normally a week). Top that off with a bit of bottle ageing and your good.
 
tlarham said:
Thanks for all the tips everyone!

Last question: barring misreading hydrometers and thermometers, I'm thinking the unfermentables are the issue. So...

How do you all go about recipe design and specialty grains? The Amber has a lot, no doubt (Note to self...no more crystal + carapils)...but the stout only has the .5 of crystal...that doesn't seem excessive, does it?

Which grains do you all consider the worse offenders as far as unfermentables?

Thanks again!

Now to check my tools...
Click to expand...

I say Carapils would be your worst offender, no flavor, just the addition of body and mouthfeel.

Max in batch for crystal/caramel, and carapils type grains is 20% and that is alot! More so for the Carapils, since there is really no flavor addition associated with it.

I normally use between 5-10% crystal malts in the majority of my recies that call for it, I usually end up around 7%ish.

Roasted malts will add a very small amount of unfermentables to your brew, but they are mainly for color, and that bitter, chocolate, coffee, roasty goodness.

Anayhow, looking at your recipes with the Crystal & Carapils you are still within the 20% range, but like I said 20% is alot, so keep around 5-10%, and stop using Carapils, personally, I think it is a steeping grain for Extract, and Partial Mashers to aid in body and head retention, and maybe a thin light beer, that you want to add some body and mouthfeel to. I used to use it when I was extract brewing, and I only had one brew with a gravity under 1.020 @ 1.018, but extract is a whole different story, I hear lots of stories of the 1.020 curse of extract.
 
I've never had an issue with head retention or body in any of my beer, and I've never used carapils... I've also never done extract.
 
tlarham said:
Thanks for all the tips everyone!

Last question: barring misreading hydrometers and thermometers, I'm thinking the unfermentables are the issue. So...

How do you all go about recipe design and specialty grains? The Amber has a lot, no doubt (Note to self...no more crystal + carapils)...but the stout only has the .5 of crystal...that doesn't seem excessive, does it?

Which grains do you all consider the worse offenders as far as unfermentables?

Thanks again!

Now to check my tools...
Click to expand...

If you go to here and scroll down to the list of
specialty malts

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator

you can see that the crystal malts add
roughly 32 to 36 points per pound per gallon.
A small amount of that is fermentable, most
of it isn't. For the darker ones like chocolate
and black, it's about 30 and basically none
of that is fermentable.
For flaked barley, it's hard to say. It's used
to add body to beers, but there is a large
amount of fermentables in it, that's why it
has to be mashed.

As far as malt extract causing this problem,
the only way that could happen is if the
extract is made with some kind of crystal
like cara-pils (some are), then if you add
some more specialty malts on your own,
you could end up with more than you expect.
But extracts are exactly the same thing
that comes out of any mash.

Ray
 
Forgot to answer all of your questions. One part
of learning about recipes is to take a look at some
successful recipes and go from there. Here's a page
with Jamil Zainischeff's award-winning recipes:

http://beerdujour.com/JamilsBrewingNetworkRecipes.htm

You can also use the recipator page or other homebrew
software to help you with original gravities and color.
Then the most important part is to keep track of what
you are doing and don't try to change too many things
at once otherwise you won't really know what caused
what.

Ray
 
El_Exorcisto said:
I've never had an issue with head retention or body in any of my beer, and I've never used carapils... I've also never done extract.
Click to expand...

I do a pecan beer, and carapils helps out a lot with head retention and is almost a must have due to the oils in the pecans. So there are places for it in all grain, but not in every brew.
 
Schnitzengiggle said:
First things first, calibrate your themometer, and I see no real reason for the carapils in your brews.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I use a 12 inch glass lab thermometer. It takes a little longer to register but if you don't mind the longer read time and working with glass the thing is always dead on accurate. I also agree that the carapils is not needed.
 
Maybe try a proven recipe first and see if this fixes the issue. Then start making up your own and playing around
 
It's not just me!

I just calibrated my hydrometer in 60 degree water, and it read 1.04-5! Does that mean I'm getting a static 4-5 point over-read, or does that scale up with sugars?

New hydrometer on the shopping list.:mug:
 
tlarham said:
It's not just me!

I just calibrated my hydrometer in 60 degree water, and it read 1.04-5! Does that mean I'm getting a static 4-5 point over-read, or does that scale up with sugars?

New hydrometer on the shopping list.:mug:
Click to expand...

Be certain your Hydrometer is calibrated for 60F, otherwose, congrats on solving your problem.

You can still use it, just deduct 4-5 points from everything you measure with it.
 
Schnitzengiggle said:
Be certain your Hydrometer is calibrated for 60F, otherwose, congrats on solving your problem.

You can still use it, just deduct 4-5 points from everything you measure with it.
Click to expand...

You should also be using distilled water for calibration. Bottled or Tap shouldn't make that big of a difference, but will affect it some.
 

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