Hybrid brewing

[MplsUgly]

I think a hybrid brew system might be just what I need.

I had ambitions of a E Hermes system but today I took my "in progress" rig for a test brew but on gas rather than electric as that stage isn't complete yet. I was really surprised at how little heat I needed to add to the HLT as I was circulating my mash. It made me think that maybe I just need a small element to maintain my HLT/mash temps and I can bring the water up to temp on gas and boil with gas as usual?? Maybe even kick on the gas for mash out but let a small element do the fine tuning.

The upside is it would be way easier for me to run a small element on 110 in my garage rather than install 220 out there or in my basement and that would save me some serious coin.

Can it be done? Has it been done? What element would be needed to maintain 14 gallons of water at 160 degrees in a keggle? I know it's not as glamorous as a full electric system in a nice tiled basement with all the bells and whistles but it could be just what I need to run in my garage without major investment.

 

[MplsUgly]

A couple pictures from today.

 

[Cashjon]

This set-up is what I was thinking on doing, are you taking the wort from the grain bed and circulating it threw your coil (to maintain temp in the water) and back into the top of the grain bed? I am just still getting everything together, I do have a brand new mash tun (10gallon) but this system eliminates the cooler doesn't it? THANK-you in advance for any replies, John

 

[MplsUgly]

Yes. It's called a HERMS system. There's a lot to read about them if you want to get into it. It works really well for maintaining mash temps and heating for mash out. Once you add a controller to the HLT for maintaining that temp you can sit back and relax. Im not there yet. I still do a lot of manual tuning to get my temps where I want them but it's not too bad.

 

[Metzen]

I use a hybrid setup. I used to run HERMS on all gas, but I recently switched to gas HLT/BK with a 120V RIMS tube driven by a CBPi headless controller. The RIMS uses a 12" 1500 watt element which gives ~52watt per sq inch (ULWD required for a RIMS tube). I find it more than enough for maintaining temps and ramping.

However, I've always preferred the more stable, steady temp change of a HERMS, so I've rebuilt the controller to drive the gas side as well - but have yet to put the full kit back together. I'll then be able to leverage HERMS or RIMS for different stages of the brew (definitely overkill but useful and fun for experimenting).

In summary, yes it can work and work well. I did it for the same reasons you mentioned - avoid installation of the 220V.

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[MplsUgly]

I use a hybrid setup. I used to run HERMS on all gas, but I recently switched to gas HLT/BK with a 120V RIMS tube driven by a CBPi headless controller. The RIMS uses a 12" 1500 watt element which gives ~52watt per sq inch (ULWD required for a RIMS tube). I find it more than enough for maintaining temps and ramping.

However, I've always preferred the more stable, steady temp change of a HERMS, so I've rebuilt the controller to drive the gas side as well - but have yet to put the full kit back together. I'll then be able to leverage HERMS or RIMS for different stages of the brew (definitely overkill but useful and fun for experimenting).

In summary, yes it can work and work well. I did it for the same reasons you mentioned - avoid installation of the 220V.

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That looks like a slick setup. What are you using as a controller and software to run it?

 

[Metzen]

Software is CraftBeerPi (CraftBeerPi.com).

Controller was DIY. I just rebuilt to integrate gas side - pics below. Putting the full kit back together tonight.

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[pat_carnig]

I am currently using a hybrid system while I slowly piece together a fully electric system in my basement. (they're so dang expensive!). I made a very simple mash temp control panel to control pump/element power and a single PID for temp control. I use a cheapo 120v heatstick to maintain temp in the HLT. I did end up adding a second one to help heat the water initially as it took forever to get up to temp. Once the water is ready for mash-in I just pull the plug on the second element and let the single element plugged into the control panel do the rest. Then I transfer to BK and boil on propane. It works pretty dang slick, the only downside for me is not being able to be indoors (I live in MN). It's definitely a budget option for those wanting a temp controlled HERMS option but not wanting to pay for a Brutus or ElectricBrewery system.

 

[Pleiades]

For those using a second element to get the boil up, be sure to check your amperage draw. Having wires catch fire in the roof is no laughing matter. I learnt a lot about electricity whilst building my electric brewery (using the plans at www.theelectricbrewery.com), and in spite of having a pretty strong anti-authoritarian streak, I can see why countries like Australia make it illegal to do anything more than changing a light bulb - super easy to get you or yours hurt if it's not done right.

Having said that...I've just upgraded my kit from 3500 watt elements to 5500 watt, and the difference in both ramp times and boil vigour is incredible. If you can get a 30 amp circuit in your house, go the larger elements. My house was built in the 30s, and in rural Tasmania, so rather than risk dodgy wiring, I had a 30 amp circuit put in to handle the new elements. Cost me 400 schmekles, but the time saving getting up to temp is nice.

My only real pain is ramping for step mashes, which I do regularly. Getting from, say, 131 to 145 can take a while, although I'm going to try something today to see if I can make it quicker

 

[christyle]

This is my "Ghetto eHERMS" I'm using now. Anova sous vide heater/circulator, cooler mash tun and old boil kettle HLT. If I insulated it it would probably work even better, I may try that next round, but the pot lets me finish the warming up on the stove when needed. The 110V element is slow to be sure, I use it to preheat the sparge, which I use for my mash tun pre-heat and then eHERMS water bath. It holds temps once there, no problem yet. It works, and it was a lot easier then the mess of wires and PIDs and junk I see everyone else with, but it's not the best setup. I just didnt feel like doing the full eHERMS deal quite yet as I don't have 220 in my brew area.

 

[MplsUgly]

It works pretty dang slick, the only downside for me is not being able to be indoors (I live in MN). It's definitely a budget option for those wanting a temp controlled HERMS option but not wanting to pay for a Brutus or ElectricBrewery system.[/QUOTE]

I like the insulated tubing. I haven't seen many people do that but it must be a big help.

I'm in MN too. The struggle is real.

I thought it would be ideal to have a system in my basement but I have never had a brew day that didn't have a few pints of spilled wort and that would be an issue in my basement. SWMBO doesn't like sticky feet. I like brewing in my garage and if I was going to add 220 I think it would be in my garage to be dual use for a welder. I think It would be easier to heat my garage in the winter than brew in my basement at this point but I'm not sure how winter cleanup would be out there. In the past I had a simple 5 gallon system and I would bring everything out to brew, then everything in to clean. That's what I really want to get away from now that I'm using kegs. Well see how I feel about that come December.

 

[pat_carnig]

It works pretty dang slick, the only downside for me is not being able to be indoors (I live in MN). It's definitely a budget option for those wanting a temp controlled HERMS option but not wanting to pay for a Brutus or ElectricBrewery system.

I like the insulated tubing. I haven't seen many people do that but it must be a big help.

I'm in MN too. The struggle is real.

I thought it would be ideal to have a system in my basement but I have never had a brew day that didn't have a few pints of spilled wort and that would be an issue in my basement. SWMBO doesn't like sticky feet. I like brewing in my garage and if I was going to add 220 I think it would be in my garage to be dual use for a welder. I think It would be easier to heat my garage in the winter than brew in my basement at this point but I'm not sure how winter cleanup would be out there. In the past I had a simple 5 gallon system and I would bring everything out to brew, then everything in to clean. That's what I really want to get away from now that I'm using kegs. Well see how I feel about that come December.

I'm not sure how much the insulation helps on the hoses lol. I just grabbed that and some water heater insulation wrap for the kegs while I was building the system. As far as the basement brew mess, I am lucky enough to be allotted (by swmbo) a little cubby/corner in the basement where I'm installing tile floors and walls for easy cleanup.

 

[jrcrilly]

It would be easy enough to add temp control to the existing HLT burner. Probably easier than adding an electric element and additional wiring.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/brews-controlling-gas-fired-burners.html

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/brews-controlling-gas-fired-burners-pt-2.html

 

[MplsUgly]

^. Probably true and I'm considering that. I hear about some temp overshoot issues with gas but what do I know!??

I think I'll give it a couple more brews as is and see where the real improvements are needed. I can make my current system work as is but we all know that the fun of brewing is changing things up and improving your processes and product. Speaking of product, I think it's time for a beer.

 

[jrcrilly]

^. Probably true and I'm considering that. I hear about some temp overshoot issues with gas but what do I know!??

No reason for overshoot with a properly (auto-) trained PID. I have no problems with my system.

 

[Cashjon]

Yes. It's called a HERMS system. There's a lot to read about them if you want to get into it. It works really well for maintaining mash temps and heating for mash out. Once you add a controller to the HLT for maintaining that temp you can sit back and relax. Im not there yet. I still do a lot of manual tuning to get my temps where I want them but it's not too bad.

What I have might work already for maintaining temps, I have a keg style still with electric and a nice PID, I also put the same fitting in my keggle 1-1/2" triclamp, so I could use the same element and PID for brewing, I have 2 just haven't made my second one up yet.Using some of the same equipment for both hobbies is like 2 birds with one stone. I don't see why that would not work, the only thing I always wondered about this type of setup was a concern about the pump creating a suction from the bottom of the grain bed and causing a clog, do you have any trouble with that? I understand you have a false bottom and all but that's what I always figured what could happen. Can your pump be cranked back so that does not happen? Thanks John

 

[MizzouFermentationScience]

This is my "Ghetto eHERMS" I'm using now. Anova sous vide heater/circulator, cooler mash tun and old boil kettle HLT. If I insulated it it would probably work even better, I may try that next round, but the pot lets me finish the warming up on the stove when needed. The 110V element is slow to be sure, I use it to preheat the sparge, which I use for my mash tun pre-heat and then eHERMS water bath. It holds temps once there, no problem yet. It works, and it was a lot easier then the mess of wires and PIDs and junk I see everyone else with, but it's not the best setup. I just didnt feel like doing the full eHERMS deal quite yet as I don't have 220 in my brew area.

You beautiful son of a witch. You are not alone, together we shall build an army to destroy the frustrated civil engineers of HBT (I have faith that me's and ee's have better things to do with their time than build 1950s era controllers for homebrewing). I too use the Anova. I much prefer herms to rims because my brew process essentially self cleans during sparge and I don't worry about scorching.

I use a hybrid system- boil with gas. I don't hate electric boil kettles but my quick chill technique requires unobstructed area in the kettle.

Instead of building garbage PIDs not fit for sewing machines, I have the Bluetooth anova and Bluetooth plugs for my pump and an auxillery 1200W hot plate under my HLT (for big temperature jumps and heating up strike water). Wifi would be better but the Bluetooth anova is $50 cheaper. So I can control the mash from my iPhone while sitting on the couch. That's right, I decided to use the supercomputer we all carry around rather than home built fire hazards.

 

[christyle]

Thanks! I'm really digging the setup so far. I wish the element was more powerful, or I had a hot plate like you do. I also would have liked the wifi better as the Bluetooth range kind of sucks for where I brew, but It's a heck of a lot easier and cheaper than a true eHERMs deal, and used a bunch of stuff I already had.