HR 5843 Personal Use Marijuana

[Klainmeister]

I actually think that legalizing it and allowing people to grow their own (which is easy enough) would help sink the market and annihilate the whole danger aspect of the drug dealing scene--in regards to pot that is.

If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.

 

[MULE]

Relax, smoke up a bowl or two

Job makes this option a no-go

 

[jezter6]

I actually think that legalizing it and allowing people to grow their own (which is easy enough) would help sink the market and annihilate the whole danger aspect of the drug dealing scene--in regards to pot that is.

If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.

Have you homegrown yourself? I've had many homegrown attempts, and let me tell you that I've only ever seen one person who can grow anything remotely good.

 

[MULE]

If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.

Ah, but it is just as easy as ordering supplies online.

EDIT: Making beer is fairly easy

 

[kornkob]

It seems to me that legalization, even with heavy regulatory taxation, would drop the price. After all a big portion of the reason for the higher prices is that, in addition to all the production and transportation costs that even a legal product has, pot dealers also have to deal with covert security, product loss due to enforcement efforts and inefficient retail arrangements. One would think that once those expensive costs of doing black market business are removed by bringing the product into light, they'd be able to drop the price dramatically.

As for dealers continuing to sell because of the ease of grow operations, it seems to me that keeping the penalties high for 'unlicensed production, transport or sale' and offering opportunities for those large scale operators to move into legitimate enterprise would effectively cut off the blank market supply end and make the retail end risk/reward too heavily skewed. Of course, the small scale 'personal use' crowd would be there, just as there is with moonshine, but that's pretty much the case in almost every regulated field. The main thing is by legalizing and taxing the stuff, they are turning a cost center (costs of enforcement ops and housing convicts) into a revenue generator (via taxation). It also eliminates the violence associated with an underground, cash business and moves it into the well lit, violence free counter of your local retail store.

Also, I'm not sure how much of the current 'street' price of weed is related to scarcity. If it is hard to acquire it will be more expensive. Once large scale manufacturing is happening in the open, one would think that the scarcity issue would be corrected.



However, I don't know enough about the specifics of the economics surrounding black market weed to be certain that all my assumptions are valid.


Another thing: we might find it hard to get companies to take up weed as a product for a while as we've had almost 30 years of near Puritian attitudes about drugs (pre-Regan there were more than one mainstream polititian openly supporting legalization). It might take some time for large companies who have cultivated a 'drug free' image to come around and start production.

 

[jezter6]

It seems to me that legalization, even with heavy regulatory taxation, would drop the price. After all a big portion of the reason for the higher prices is that, in addition to all the production and transpotion costs that even a legal product has, pot dealers also have to deal with covert security, product loss due to enforcement efforts and inefficent retail arrangements. One would think that once those expensive costs of doing black market business are removed by bringing the product into light, they'd be able to drop the price dramatically.

As for dealers continuing to sell becasue fo the ease of grow operations, it seems to me that keeping the penalties high for 'unlicensed production, transport or sale' and offering opportunities for those large scale operators to move into legitimate enterprice woudl effectivley cut off the blank market supply end and make the retail end risk/reward too heavily skewed. Of course, the small scale 'personal use' crowd would be there, jsut as there is with mooshine, but that's pretty much the case in almost every regulated field. The main thing is by legalizing and taxing the stuff, they are turning a cost center (costs of enforcement ops and housing convicts) into a revenue generator (via taxation). It also elminates the violence assocaited with an underground, cash business and moves it into the well lit, violence free counter of your local retail store.

I was looking around at the medicinal Marijuana info, and found that it's going for roughly $60 per 1/8 oz, or $480 per oz. Last I knew, an ounce of decent black market was more than 50% less than that. Given that we have a government established current price for it, I highly doubt that mass legal pot would go for anything less than that - in spite of standard supply and demand pricing since it will be a government regulated item.

Call my crazy - but a good portion of America would not pay that price, and continue to use underground methods. The only other way to combat that, of course, is harsher drug sentencing which is the exacyt opposite of what some people are arguing that legalization would achieve.

 

[the_bird]

I was looking around at the medicinal Marijuana info, and found that it's going for roughly $60 per 1/8 oz, or $480 per oz. Last I knew, an ounce of decent black market was more than 50% less than that. Given that we have a government established current price for it, I highly doubt that mass legal pot would go for anything less than that - in spite of standard supply and demand pricing since it will be a government regulated item.

Call my crazy - but a good portion of America would not pay that price, and continue to use underground methods. The only other way to combat that, of course, is harsher drug sentencing which is the exacyt opposite of what some people are arguing that legalization would achieve.

That's an artificially constrained market. I don't think you can reasonably use that as your basis for what the price might be in a free market.

 

[jezter6]

That's an artificially constrained market. I don't think you can reasonably use that as your basis for what the price might be in a free market.

It's a government price fixed market. Unless MJ is as freely distributed as cigarettes, which are heavily taxed as is, I don't see it being any cheaper.

 

[kornkob]

Not the same thing at all--- that's medical weed which is handled differently than, say, tobacco is and certainly isn't being produced on a large scale.

 

[jezter6]

It depends on what kind of market we're talking. If we're talking a fully free market - ie: anyone in the USA can start growing and selling weed, it will take a big price dip. That's assuming it's as legal as growing tomatos in the back yard.

If it's heavily regulated, we will pay based on a low supply of product heavily taxed with restrictions on harvest amounts and security procedures, etc, etc.

I don't see #1 happening ever. I see a #2 as a more likely possibility in the long-term future.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

I'm all for legalizing it, and I do think it would save a lot of money, and possibly make some. I've never understood how the government decides that something that grows in nature is ILLEGAL to posess. I can see why you wouldn't allow something to be SOLD if it is harmful or poisonous to humans...that is what the FDA is for. However, if some individual wants to grow their own for their own personal use, what is the problem?

This plant was on this earth before the government decided it was evil. It also has no more harmful side effects than nicotine products, alcohol, and many FDA approved drugs. My opinion: make it legal to grow and posess, but not to sell. This takes the possibility of taxes and profit out of the picture.

It's a PLANT...that grows in the ground! Maybe we can start a thread about illegal plants and why they are illegal to grow.

 

[MULE]

If it's heavily regulated, we will pay based on a low supply of product heavily taxed with restrictions on harvest amounts and security procedures, etc, etc.

If it is state taxed, we will be screwed..... not trying to open another can of worms, just sayin.

 

[the_bird]

You couldn't make it legal to grow but not to sell; country bumpkins like me wouldn't have any problem growing as much as I wanted, but people who live in the city would have a much more difficult time. It wouldn't really alleviate the crime aspect of it (since people would still be buying and selling it), and it would likely raise a lot of racial questions as well (those who can grow it in the country are more apt to be white, those who can't grow it in the inner city...)

Not taking a stand on the last issue - but that's an issue that WOULD be raised and make the topic even more controversial than it already is.

 

[mr x]

Not taking a stand on the last issue - but that's an issue that WOULD be raised and make the topic even more controversial than it already is.

Hardly matters anymore. The current drugs laws are dripping with racism and hatred. Most people just don't know the history of them.

 

[Klainmeister]

I've never grown. I hate marijuana personally, but i have had friends with good results. Likewise, my grandfather during the 60's grew some in his corn fields without any issue. I have done hydroponics before for research, which entailed growing some very delicate plants inside....it's not that hard.

Edit: I don't know about you, but making good beer is quite difficult. Maybe I just hold myself to a lot higher standards than most people, but I think after 3 years and hundreds of gallons I would say that only 5-10% I would consider good. But I'm a critic--you should see how hard I am on my large format photography!

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

You couldn't make it legal to grow but not to sell; country bumpkins like me wouldn't have any problem growing as much as I wanted, but people who live in the city would have a much more difficult time. It wouldn't really alleviate the crime aspect of it (since people would still be buying and selling it), and it would likely raise a lot of racial questions as well (those who can grow it in the country are more apt to be white, those who can't grow it in the inner city...)

Not taking a stand on the last issue - but that's an issue that WOULD be raised and make the topic even more controversial than it already is.

There's no reason it cannot be grown in the city. Hydroponic lighting can be found cheaply...and if that isn't an option, what about a back porch, terrace or window? It's much easier to grow in a garden, but not impossible in a city. As for the racial questions...I don't see how that would ever be seriously considered. Sounds more like a conspiracy theory....and if you can grow but not sell, you aren't giving a monetary "advantage" to anyone.

 

[Bobby_M]

The only reason the medicinal market is so highly inflated is to discourage recreational use (leakage out of the system). If it is truly given open market status and picked up by all the major tabacco companies and taxed at a similar rate as cigarettes, it would be much cheaper than black market pot. I don't want to smoke it but I still think it should be legal.

 

[Chriso]

I'm going to ignore the pot issue - I have my own opinions and habits and it's not going to further the discussion past what others have said. But I DO have a story that relates to this.

Back towards the start of this thread, jezter said something about being anti-government because they've screwed the pooch too many times. My Canuck friend was just down for a week, and we had fantastic conversations about politics and heathcare and drug laws and you name it........ and about halfway through the conversation, she asked me

"But, I still don't get why all of this is an issue to Americans - I mean, ultimately your government is here to protect you, right?"

I thought, and tried to respond, and couldn't. I didn't have an answer. Our government does not seem to be here to protect us - in fact, they seem to be here to punish us, and protect the elite, the chosen few.

Hopefully, the context of this discussion will be very different in 12 months once we have an intelligent and positive leader who tries to improve life for American citizens.

 

[stever]

Hopefully, the context of this discussion will be very different in 12 months once we have an intelligent and positive leader who tries to improve life for American citizens.

Too bad there isn't a person like that running for president.

 

[Fingers]

I find it interesting that not only do a bunch of beer swillers think it should be legal, but not a single one buys into the 'dangerous drug' propoganda spewed out by government. Since nobody is buying that crap, how is it that this stuff is still illegal?

I can see from a few of the posts that some have delved into the history of drug prohibition and know the real truth about weed. In fact, the truth isn't hard to find. For my Canadian friends, here's the basic summary of the results:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/ille-e/press-e/04sep02-e.htm

I deliberately linked from the government website so you could establish its veracity for yourself. The full report is available online if you want to read it. It's a real eye opener and makes you wonder why the government is doing exactly the opposite despite the recommendations of the report and its warning about the dangers of continued prohibition.

If you can't find the report online, I'll post a link to it. Oh, and there' also the LeDain commission report that said the same thing back in the 1970's, and the Fraser Institute (right wing think tank believe it or not) just a couple of years ago. The list goes on and on.

 

[kornkob]

There's no reason it cannot be grown in the city. Hydroponic lighting can be found cheaply...and if that isn't an option, what about a back porch, terrace or window?

It's my understanding that in order to sustain a daily use of MJ a person needs to have 3-6 plants growing at any given time in different growth stages. To grow that many plants you'd need a climate controlled space roughly the size of 2 refrigerator boxes. That does put it out of reach for most people in a fully urbanized area.

Now the specs above are half remembered from a book I read in the 90s so forgive me if I'm off on this.

Regardless, even if home grow was made legal urbanites would still be likely to buy it off their rural friends or at least make 'beer for weed' swaps. However, if the growth was regulated, mass legal production/distribution was implemented and the existing drug laws were applied to unlicensed trafficing I think we'd see more users buying commerical stuff than taking the risk of arrest over black market.

 

[mr x]

It's my understanding that in order to sustain a daily use of MJ a person needs to have 3-6 plants growing at any given time in different growth stages. To grow that many plants you'd need a climate controlled space roughly the size of 2 refrigerator boxes. That does put it out of reach for most people in a fully urbanized area.

Now the specs above are half remembered from a book I read in the 90s so forgive me if I'm off on this.

waaaaayyyyyyyy off with those stats, assuming you don't smoke an oz a day.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

It's my understanding that in order to sustain a daily use of MJ

Daily? well wouldnt that be nice. some of us just want a nice friday night relaxer.

A lot of people would look at 5 gallons of beer as insane. You should only need 12-24 oz at most at any given time right?

 

[stever]

I found this to be pretty enlightening on why it became illegal and who was responsible.

History Channel (Hooked) - Marijuana

Part 1:
[YOUTUBE]-Yqyx0pCIHA&hl[/YOUTUBE]

Part 2:
[YOUTUBE]Vx50lhkQcf0[/YOUTUBE]

Part 3:
[YOUTUBE]oloobzAU-3Q[/YOUTUBE]

Part 4:
[YOUTUBE]fKbfXabxddg[/YOUTUBE]

Part 5:
[YOUTUBE]uVQoz1dFIuE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[kornkob]

waaaaayyyyyyyy off with those stats, assuming you don't smoke an oz a day.

IIRC, an indoor plant can be counted on to produce 100-200 grams every 2-3 months. So we're talking about a little more than 2 grams per day. That's more like a "1/8th every other day" habit unless my math is off somewhere.

*shrug* point being: several concurrently grown plants would be needed to support a regular user in a household.

The specs aren't that critical to this discussion anyway. Really we'd need to figure out how much of the current street cost of pot is related to scarcity and black market costs and compare that to the costs of legal sale, regulation and less scarcity.

Frankly, I suspect weed use would go up (easy to acquire and legal to carry) and the price would plummet (mass production takes hold and black market costs are shed).

I also predict that this measure will not pass. The currently political process is still too puritanical to tolerate this sort of measure.

 

[mr x]

point being: several concurrently grown plants would be needed to support a regular user in a household.

Very very easily done in an urban setting. You just learn to do it right.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

IIRC, an indoor plant can be counted on to produce 100-200 grams every 2-3 months. So we're talking about a little more than 2 grams per day. That's more like a "1/8th every other day" habit unless my math is off somewhere.

Wow, I guess my experience (or lack thereof) in smoking shows here. I haven't smoked weed in many years, but I have friends that do. If I remember back to those hazy days, I would buy an 1/8th once a week at most. I know some people smoked more...but 1/8th every other day??? WOW!

 

[jezter6]

It's been a long time since I've cared to measure anything like I do hops, but the same medical site I checked earlier showed 0.5g to 1.0g as the 'standard dosage' for medical use.

At 2 grams per day, that's 2-4 doses, which should be enough for even the above average smoker.

 

[Chriso]

If I remember back to those hazy days, I would buy an 1/8th once a week at most. I know some people smoked more...but 1/8th every other day??? WOW!

*scribbles some numbers on paper* ... *stares at numbers for a while*

*wanders to living room to ... uh ... "do research"* ... *stumbles back*

Yep, an eighth a day is about right.

 

[Chriso]

I find it interesting that not only do a bunch of beer swillers think it should be legal, but not a single one buys into the 'dangerous drug' propoganda spewed out by government. Since nobody is buying that crap, how is it that this stuff is still illegal?

That's the question I've been asking for the majority of my adult life. If none of "us" think like that, then who's thinking for us????

Thanks for the link to the repository, it's been about 3 years since I read through all that! I've been meaning to track down the link for some re-reading. That was from back in "the day" when I was getting ready to immigrate North. Probably should've done it, in hindsight.