How to measure aciduated malt?

[JonM]

So I'm planning on brewing a Munich Helles soon and was working with Bru'n water. In the mash calculations, after inputting a small amount of CaCl, it showed the estimated room temp pH as 5.6. If I input .4 mL/gallon of 88% lactic acid, it gets down to a good 5.4.

Where I'm struggling is this: If I want to use aciduated malt instead of actual acid, how do I calculate an equivalent amount of aciduated malt?

 

[mchrispen]

If you will remove your liquid acid addition from the Water Adjustment Tab, the you can add small amounts of Aciduated or Acid malt in the Mash Acidification Tab and get an immediate prediction. Start with just a few ounces and increment up until you achieve the room temperature mash pH you desire. Row 24 should give you immediate feedback. I would shoot for 5.3 pH for such a light beer.

You may wish to do a test mash if you find that the acid malt exceeds 1-2% of your grain bill. Hopefully you have a pH meter handy and can verify in the mash you hit your target.

 

[passedpawn]

For each 1% of your grain bill that is acidulated malt, you'll lower the mash pH 0.1%.

I use this rule of thumb. I don't remember testing this, but I might have. Too much beer under the bridge to recall details.

 

[JonM]

If you will remove your liquid acid addition from the Water Adjustment Tab, the you can add small amounts of Aciduated or Acid malt in the Mash Acidification Tab and get an immediate prediction. /QUOTE]


Oh, man. I just realized acid malt was a choice in the drop down menu. Duh. I was way overthinking this. Thanks!

EDIT: 0.2 lbs of acid malt gets me to an estimated room temp pH of 5.3. Thanks again!

 

[mabrungard]

Where I'm struggling is this: If I want to use aciduated malt instead of actual acid, how do I calculate an equivalent amount of aciduated malt?

Snap out of it, Man! Acid malt is not the way to do it

No, really, you end up with the same effect in your beer by using liquid lactic acid instead of acid malt. Liquid is more precise and far cheaper than acid malt. I don't buy the contention that acid malt adds nuances that lactic does not. At the typical usage rate, you shouldn't really be able to note a difference when two identical batches are acidified to the same degree.

 

[JonM]

Interesting! I do have a 1 mL pipette that is graduated in .25 mL increments, so maybe measuring out 1.2 mL of lactic acid wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[ajdelange]

Acid malt, or if you want to make it, sauergut, is the way to do it. It supplies not only the acidity you need but the nuanced flavors that come with the natural product, which Martin himself points out in another post are important in German and Bohemian beers. You have to be a little careful with it because each kg does not contain exactly the same amount of acid but the rule of thumb has always worked very well for me. There are rumors of a 'super sauermalz' with double the lactic acid but if you stick with Weyermanns (it is their rule of thumb) you need not fear pH undershoot because of that. Martin doesn't buy the nuances argument and that's fine but others of us do and can taste the difference. Weyermann, of course, emphasizes this but then they are trying to sell their product. I suppose what people should do is try it both ways and if they think the extra flavoring is worth the extra money go with it. OW stick with the acid. And sauermalz is definitely easier to use as you are weighing specialty grains out anyway and its hard to beat the necessary calculation for simplicity. Most of us can compute 1% of something in our heads.

 

[SnowRaven]

Acid malt, or if you want to make it, sauergut, is the way to do it. It supplies not only the acidity you need but the nuanced flavors that come with the natural product, which Martin himself points out in another post are important in German and Bohemian beers. You have to be a little careful with it because each kg does not contain exactly the same amount of acid but the rule of thumb has always worked very well for me. There are rumors of a 'super sauermalz' with double the lactic acid but if you stick with Weyermanns (it is their rule of thumb) you need not fear pH undershoot because of that. Martin doesn't buy the nuances argument and that's fine but others of us do and can taste the difference. Weyermann, of course, emphasizes this but then they are trying to sell their product. I suppose what people should do is try it both ways and if they think the extra flavoring is worth the extra money go with it. OW stick with the acid. And sauermalz is definitely easier to use as you are weighing specialty grains out anyway and its hard to beat the necessary calculation for simplicity. Most of us can compute 1% of something in our heads.

What is the Item Labeled (called) under Weyermann's Brand? for Acid Malt?

I thought is was always beter to use Phosphoric Acid than Lactic.
As this is what commercial Breweries do (as Lactic adds a sour component)

 

[mchrispen]

Lactic Acid has a role, but definitely can contribute either a desired or undesired flavor to the beer. In many German beer styles, the home brewer will substitue lactic acid for sauermaltz to enhance the traditional background bite/sourness found in the style.

Phosphoric seems to have a lesser flavor contribution, but definitely has a taste that contributes part of the flavor of sodas. I preferred phosphoric because of the very high alkalinity of my tap water - before I switched to RO. It didn't bring the sour flavor that lactic would.

It is a matter of preference, tradition and convenience in the use of aciduated/sauermaltz versus a liquid acid as part of the all grain bill to achieve optimal mash pH and the flavor nuance you might be expecting.

 

[ajdelange]

I thought is was always beter to use Phosphoric Acid than Lactic.
As this is what commercial Breweries do (as Lactic adds a sour component)

'Always' and 'never' are not words found in the brewer's dictionary.

Lactic acid has a flavor that is desirable in many foods. Yoghurt, sour milk, sour cream, sourdough bread, guerze, lambic, Berliner weiße and even, it seems, pilsner and other lagers benefit from a hint of lactic. It is not just sour. In fact in most of those foods the sour is not that noticeable. It is the flavor from the latate ion.

If you are a German brewer any acid other than lactic produced in the brewery is forbidden so those guys have no choice.

If you are a homebrewer seeking to brew authentic German lagers you should definitely use sauergut or sauermalz for those nuanced flavor effects I mentioned in the last post.

Management of hard, carbonaceous waters with phosphoric is difficult because apatite is precipitated pulling out calcium and effectively increasing the strength of the acid. It can be done but is a bit tricky.

 

[SnowRaven]

'Always' and 'never' are not words found in the brewer's dictionary.



Lactic acid has a flavor that is desirable in many foods. Yoghurt, sour milk, sour cream, sourdough bread, guerze, lambic, Berliner weiße and even, it seems, pilsner and other lagers benefit from a hint of lactic. It is not just sour. In fact in most of those foods the sour is not that noticeable. It is the flavor from the latate ion.



If you are a German brewer any acid other than lactic produced in the brewery is forbidden so those guys have no choice.



If you are a homebrewer seeking to brew authentic German lagers you should definitely use sauergut or sauermalz for those nuanced flavor effects I mentioned in the last post.



Management of hard, carbonaceous waters with phosphoric is difficult because apatite is precipitated pulling out calcium and effectively increasing the strength of the acid. It can be done but is a bit tricky.

What about with RODI? And Phos Acid? Any advice?

 

[ajdelange]

You will need some acid with most grain bills even with water with 0 proton deficit (alkalinity). It can be any acid you like. I think most people decide based on whether they are brewing German influenced styles or not in which case they are likely to use lactic acid/sauergut/sauermalz. If the style is British they will probably go with CRS if they can get it and for everything else, phosphoric.

 

[SnowRaven]

you will need some acid with most grain bills even with water with 0 proton deficit (alkalinity). It can be any acid you like. I think most people decide based on whether they are brewing german influenced styles or not in which case they are likely to use lactic acid/sauergut/sauermalz. If the style is british they will probably go with crs if they can get it and for everything else, phosphoric.

crs?

 

[mchrispen]

CRS is an acid blend used in UK breweries. http://www.brupaks.com/brewing-aids.htm

It is rumored to be a bit more effective than the 10% phosphoric or 88% lactic acids available to the home brewer here in the US. Wish it was.

 

[SnowRaven]

CRS is an acid blend used in UK breweries. http://www.brupaks.com/brewing-aids.htm

It is rumored to be a bit more effective than the 10% phosphoric or 88% lactic acids available to the home brewer here in the US. Wish it was.

So it is a malt blend?

 

[mchrispen]

No - it's a liquid acid treatment.

 

[ajdelange]

It has been represented to me as being an equi-equivalent (i.e. half the protons come from each) blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. I am guessing it is actually equi-molar as a proton is a proton and having it equimolar means equal amounts of chloride and sulfate added. It is made by a company called Brupaks and from the directions for its use (on their website) you can dope out the normality. They say to remove 160 ppm as CaCO3 (3.2 mEq/L) alkalinity you should use 0.87 cc/L. That means, if you take them at their word that you are going to completely 0 the alkalinity (to pH 4.5 or so) that the strength is 3.2/0.87 = 3.7 mEq/cc i.e. that is is 3.7 N. It is more reasonable to suppose that you will want to take out about 85% of the alkalinity to bring you to a more normal mash pH of about 4.5 in which case the strength would be about 3.1 N. By comparison, 88% lactic acid is 11.6 N and 10% phosphoric is about 1 N (to typical mash pH).

The only advantage offered by CRS ('Carbonate Reducing Solution') is that it makes protons from sulfate and chloride available to the brewer as opposed to phosphate or lactate. Lactate is fine if you are doing continental lagers but for British beers sulfuric and hydrochloric are more traditional.