How often to monitor and when to stop

[jeff_brew]

Hi,
First brew - I've got four separate gallons fermenting now: 2 are MO2 and 2 are S-04 yeasts all at house temp of 74 degrees. I used 1 1/2 cups coconut sugar in two and 12 oz date syrup in the other two. fwiw; the date syrup for either yeast start up in a matter of two hours. The coconut sugar took at least 1/2 day to a day for the MO2 and about five to six hours for the S-04. In each case, I split the packets of yeast between the two gallons that used the different sugars. I think I ended up splitting unequally the MO2 and probably only got about 1/3 of it in the slow starting one that used coconut sugar. It's the slowest moving of all four in terms of the bubbles at this point.
These are my first cider brews and the I'm most unsure of when to check them for SG, what value to shoot for to get a medium sweet cider. I don't care for very dry/vinegary ciders. Will I need a second fermentation after racking? Will these yeasts eat up everything until it's too dry and has to be backsweetened? Should I stop them before that occurs, etc. ? Appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

 

[jerbrew]

I'd let em go for a few weeks in order to do their thing (ferment, clean up. Etc). They'll end up very dry (1.000 area) but I think it's easier to back-sweeten then it is to stop fermentation midway through. My experience with s04 and cider is that it gets going and finishes rather quickly so trying to hit a specific fg especially consistently would be difficult.

 

[dmtaylor]

I like to check the gravity of my cider after about 10 days. If you want a sweet cider then I recommend adding gelatin as soon as gravity reaches about 1.015 or thereabouts, chill as cold as you can and wait a day or two to clarify, then rack and add sorbate and sulfite. The gelatin and cold will remove about 90% of the yeast, and the chemicals will stun whatever yeast remains, so that you can stabilize and even backsweeten later if desired. After this treatment, you'll still want to wait at least a week or two to make sure fermentation has ceased, and if not then repeat the same steps to remove and hurt more of the yeast. After final gravity is stable for at least a week or two, then you should be able to safely bottle or keg, with or without backsweetening.

Personally, I don't even add the chemicals, just the gelatin. If you can wait for several MONTHS, I mean like 6 months, before you bottle, then you can get by just with gelatin and racking, and not add any chemicals. The long wait time mellows the cider and allows the yeast to die a natural death, while preserving just a few of them for possible natural carbonation if bottling. This way I've successfully achieved semi-sweet cider with no chemicals and no backsweetening necessary. But this is a more advanced process. It's faster and easier to let the sorbate hurt the yeast. The yeast doesn't necessarily die from the chemcials but they sure don't like it.

Another alternative to consider is xylitol for backsweetening. It tastes almost identical to real sugar but is not fermentable. Other sweeteners like sucralose (Splenda) or stevia taste kind of nasty. Xylitol does not. I've not done this with xylitol yet but I wouldn't hesitate to try it as I have indeed used it many times in cooking and you just can't taste the difference between it and regular sugar. Keep it away from dogs, though, it is like poison to them and they can die from eating just a gram of it.

Hope this helps. Cheers.

 

[jeff_brew]

I'd let em go for a few weeks in order to do their thing (ferment, clean up. Etc). They'll end up very dry (1.000 area) but I think it's easier to back-sweeten then it is to stop fermentation midway through. My experience with s04 and cider is that it gets going and finishes rather quickly so trying to hit a specific fg especially consistently would be difficult.

Ok, thanks for the tip. How do I know when it's done?

 

[jeff_brew]

I like to check the gravity of my cider after about 10 days. If you want a sweet cider then I recommend adding gelatin as soon as gravity reaches about 1.015 or thereabouts, chill as cold as you can and wait a day or two to clarify, then rack and add sorbate and sulfite. The gelatin and cold will remove about 90% of the yeast, and the chemicals will stun whatever yeast remains, so that you can stabilize and even backsweeten later if desired. After this treatment, you'll still want to wait at least a week or two to make sure fermentation has ceased, and if not then repeat the same steps to remove and hurt more of the yeast. After final gravity is stable for at least a week or two, then you should be able to safely bottle or keg, with or without backsweetening.

Personally, I don't even add the chemicals, just the gelatin. If you can wait for several MONTHS, I mean like 6 months, before you bottle, then you can get by just with gelatin and racking, and not add any chemicals. The long wait time mellows the cider and allows the yeast to die a natural death, while preserving just a few of them for possible natural carbonation if bottling. This way I've successfully achieved semi-sweet cider with no chemicals and no backsweetening necessary. But this is a more advanced process. It's faster and easier to let the sorbate hurt the yeast. The yeast doesn't necessarily die from the chemcials but they sure don't like it.

Another alternative to consider is xylitol for backsweetening. It tastes almost identical to real sugar but is not fermentable. Other sweeteners like sucralose (Splenda) or stevia taste kind of nasty. Xylitol does not. I've not done this with xylitol yet but I wouldn't hesitate to try it as I have indeed used it many times in cooking and you just can't taste the difference between it and regular sugar. Keep it away from dogs, though, it is like poison to them and they can die from eating just a gram of it.

Hope this helps. Cheers.

I think I read something about gelatin once, but didn't pay close attention. How does it work?
I like the taste of xylitol (just like sugar) but it gives me bad gas and abdominal pains in any quantity.
Thanks for your input.

 

[globell]

You need to work your way up to quantites of Xyitol. So work your way upto a what your normal dose of sugar would be (in say coffee). Don't start with a tbsp of if in every coffee or tea throughout the day or you will find out that it has a laxitive effect when you are not used to it. Sorry if that's TMI. Likely the season for your pains. I don't think it's likely that the amount in backsweetening will be enough to cause too many troubles.

 

[jeff_brew]

I had not heard that xylitol takes getting used to, but it would be worth investigating. Honestly it was not a laxative affect with me. It really causes stabbing pains in my gut. I think like any food or drug it can have different effects on different people. Given it's benefit of not reacting with yeast, I can see the advantage in addition to having about 1/2 the calories of sugar. We'll see.
thx.

 

[globell]

True we all react different! I think the extreme is a lacitive effect but stomach upset can definitely occur. Definitely worth looking into

 

[jeff_brew]

another question...
my most active batch started Saturday has slowed quite a bit on the bubbling activity I noticed this morning. It's about 20 seconds between bubbles where as it used to be several per second from the outset. Is this normal? I was expecting to wait two weeks before even taking a SG reading.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yes, that's normal. Might be wise to check gravity sooner than 2 weeks though. Maybe just 7 days.

 

[jeff_brew]

I was thinking of doing that. Always good to get the reinforcement from folks who've already been there.
Thanks a bunch. I'll update with the results this Saturday.

 

[jeff_brew]

First two gallons were M02 Cider yeast and the bubbling slowed considerably by day 4. After reading 90 seconds between bubbles, I stopped counting and decided I'd take readings in week.
2nd two gallons use S-04 yeast and I started a day later (last Sunday).
Here are the measurements, if I took them correctly.
I'm wondering where to go from here.
The first two batches were very strong and dry; not really how I like it.
I don't mind the high alcohol content but don't care for the dryness/tartness.
Batch 3 tastes best to me at about 7 ABV. If I like how that one tastes, should I cold stop / rack it now? I guess all this is a matter of choice whether to let it ferment longer then backsweeten.

BATCH 1 - M02 - 12 oz date syrup
"Sgrav-1.080
PABV - 11
% Sugar - 20.5
------- 2nd reading - 8 days
Sgrav - 1.000+
PABV - 0+
% Sugar -0+
========
ABV - 11%"

Batch 2 - M02 - 1 1/2 cups coconut sugar
"Sgrav-1.085
PABV - 10.5
% Sugar - 20
---- 2nd reading - 8 days
Sgrav - 1.000+
PABV - 0+
% Sugar -0+
========
ABV - 10.5

3rd batch S-04 (still bubbling today and much more yeast on bottom)
- 1 1/2 cups coconut sugar
SG-1.085
PABV - 10.5
% Sugar - 20
----- 2nd Reading - 7 days
SG - 1.029
PABV - 3.5
% Sugar - 7
=======
ABV - 7

4th Batch - S-04 (still bubbling today and much more yeast on bottom)
12 oz date syrup
SG-1.085
PABV - 10.5
% Sugar - 20
------2nd reading - 7 days
SG - 1.010
PABV -1.25
% Sugar - 2.5
======
9.25% abv"

 

[jeff_brew]

Hi,
I've got all the above racked once and in the frige, but I'm wondering if it should be back at room temperature? I'm hoping I can do that because I don't want to take up 4 gallons worth of space in the garage frige. I read that if there's a lot of head space, I might need to put some argon gas in there? Thanks for any help with this.