How long do you hold your cider in primary?

[Ike]

Or, if you do secondary for clarity and flavor (rather than for additions, which I understand), how long do you let a cider go (overall) from pitch to kegging/bottling?

Most of my friends like very sweet, carbonated ciders. My habit is pretty predictable: FAJC and sugar, Notty or 04, primary with temperature control until fermentation is complete (usually 30 days or so), then bottling with backsweenening, and pasteurization when I get the carbonation desired.

The result is a cider that seems to be well-reviewed. Compared with some local micro-brewed ciders, however, I can definitely detect some off-flavors that I'd like to clean up.

Will longer times in primary allow the yeast to "clean up" the flavor, as it does in beers? If so, how long do you tend to let your ciders do their thing?

Thanks!

 

[oldmate]

Your process seems fine, if I'm understanding the question right then yes, longer aging will usually allow for some off flavours to be cleaned up. I usually rack off the lees after a month or clear and bottle or bulk age in a secondary vessel. I find that leaving it in the primary any longer can give it a yeasty taste.

 

[Maylar]

What works for me is to rack to secondary when SG gets between 1.006 - 1.008. However long that takes depends on temp and yeast but somewhere in 2-3 weeks is typical. By letting primary go that far, the amount of lees in secondary will be minimal and I can age the cider as long as I want without worry. Cider is drinkable when secondary goes dry and has cleared (another 2-3 weeks) but 3-4 months of bulk aging makes a huge difference in taste.

I've never pasteurized and don't expect to. If I'm bottle conditioning I'll use Xylitol for sweetener. But now that I'm kegging there's a whole new world of options for sweetening.

 

[Ike]

But now that I'm kegging there's a whole new world of options for sweetening.

This. I'm going to be building up another kegerator/chamber this week to start kegging. I'm SO looking forward to not bottling anymore.

Do you stabilize with sulfites before backsweetening (with stuff other than xylitol, I mean)? Have you tried anything with heat-pasteurizing the whole keg?

 

[Furore]

What works for me is to rack to secondary when SG gets between 1.006 - 1.008. However long that takes depends on temp and yeast but somewhere in 2-3 weeks is typical. By letting primary go that far, the amount of lees in secondary will be minimal and I can age the cider as long as I want without worry. Cider is drinkable when secondary goes dry and has cleared (another 2-3 weeks) but 3-4 months of bulk aging makes a huge difference in taste.

I've never pasteurized and don't expect to. If I'm bottle conditioning I'll use Xylitol for sweetener. But now that I'm kegging there's a whole new world of options for sweetening.

I will second everything said here. 2-4 weeks primary, and rack it off of the yeast cake into secondary. Start to finish i would say 2 months minimum and the off flavors are pretty much gone. The longer the better, but i dont usually have patience for more than that

 

[Maylar]

This. I'm going to be building up another kegerator/chamber this week to start kegging. I'm SO looking forward to not bottling anymore.

Do you stabilize with sulfites before backsweetening (with stuff other than xylitol, I mean)? Have you tried anything with heat-pasteurizing the whole keg?

I stabilize with sulfite and sorbate before sweetening in the keg. This lets me bottle directly from the keg if I want to share some. Nobody has ever noticed the chemicals, so I have no intentions of heating anything.

 

[ericbw]

We started filtering with a really simple set up using a water filter housing and sterile filters. From there, we can backsweeten and flavor it, then keg it. You can't bottle condition once you filter or kill/stabilize the yeast.

That's an investment, though. I was happy bottling beer, but got into kegging to try to perfect the sweet cider.

What kind of off flavors are you getting?

A little tannin helps to make cider more interesting. It adds texture more than flavor. About 1/8 or 1/4 tsp per gallon after fermentation. Some people add it at the beginning. Some people use black tea bags to add some tannin/astringency as well.

I know some people like S-04, and maybe for cider it's ok. But In beer I have found it to be not to my liking. (I'm avoiding saying it's nasty, but that's what I think.) I didn't like Nottingham either. US-05 is good and clean, but WLP775 has been the best.

Cider does make a lot of sulfur, which takes time to dissipate. The aging helps. Yeast needs some more nutrients than juice provides, so nutrient might help prevent the off flavors that need to age out as much.

 

[dmtaylor]

Patience is valuable when making cider. I rack my ciders pretty often, actually. Racking 3 or 4 times is very common for my ciders. I do this to remove most of the yeast and slow down the fermentation as much as possible so that I can halt the fermentation when specific gravity gets to about 1.010. Then hit it with gelatin to remove 99% of the yeast, then keep it cold for another month or two or five. I'm never in a hurry to package my cider, just let it go for a long time until I finally get around to bottling it. By then the yeast is so tired that carbonation is not a for-sure thing anymore, but I don't care about that either, I just drink it flat or carbonated, as long as the final gravity is 1.005-1.010 then I am pretty darn happy. I don't use any chemicals or sweeteners at all, just the gelatin to get the yeast out. But for anyone in a bigger hurry I would recommend adding sorbate and sulfite when the cider tastes good, then wait another week or two to make sure fermentation doesn't take off again (it often does), add more sorbate and sulfite if necessary, then xylitol to sweeten.

Cheers.

 

[ericbw]

Patience is valuable when making cider. I rack my ciders pretty often, actually. Racking 3 or 4 times is very common for my ciders. I do this to remove most of the yeast and slow down the fermentation as much as possible so that I can halt the fermentation when specific gravity gets to about 1.010. Then hit it with gelatin to remove 99% of the yeast, then keep it cold for another month or two or five. I'm never in a hurry to package my cider, just let it go for a long time until I finally get around to bottling it. By then the yeast is so tired that carbonation is not a for-sure thing anymore, but I don't care about that either, I just drink it flat or carbonated, as long as the final gravity is 1.005-1.010 then I am pretty darn happy. I don't use any chemicals or sweeteners at all, just the gelatin to get the yeast out. But for anyone in a bigger hurry I would recommend adding sorbate and sulfite when the cider tastes good, then wait another week or two to make sure fermentation doesn't take off again (it often does), add more sorbate and sulfite if necessary, then xylitol to sweeten.

Cheers.

I hate non-sugar sweeteners, even stevia tastes funny to me. How is xylitol?

 

[dmtaylor]

I hate non-sugar sweeteners, even stevia tastes funny to me. How is xylitol?

I'm the same way, I hate Splenda, aspartame, stevia, acesulfame-potassium, you name it.

But xylitol tastes EXACTLY like real sugar. There's zero chemical flavor from it. But a slight warning as well: the only drawbacks to it are that in high quantities it will give you serious gas, and also, it is very expensive. But other than that, I would recommend it even if you don't like other fake sweeteners, it truly is THAT good.

 

[Maylar]

I hate non-sugar sweeteners, even stevia tastes funny to me. How is xylitol?

I agree with Dave on this. Xylitol tastes like sugar. Nobody hates diet sodas or artificial sweeteners more than I do. And yes, it's very expensive. But for me it only takes about 3 TBSP per gallon to get the sweetness I want. Another interesting thing is that it affects specific gravity pretty much like sugar does.

It's toxic to animals however, so don't let your dog drink any of your cider.

 

[ericbw]

It's toxic to animals however, so don't let your dog drink any of your cider.

I would never.

 

[Ike]

What kind of off flavors are you getting?

.

It's just a rougher, not-as-clean flavor, mostly on the back end. When drinking one of mine by itself, I really don't notice. BUT, when I get my hands on a local cider-micro-brewery's product and taste them side by side, I can definitely note the difference.

I'll probably start a couple batches this week, with plans to stagger the aging and see if I can notice any changes.

 

[Ike]

Patience is valuable when making cider. I rack my ciders pretty often, actually. Racking 3 or 4 times is very common for my ciders.

Veering sharply off topic, I apologize, but:

How do you manage the headspace in your vessels (carboys? buckets? kegs?) with all this racking? I've been able to start a batch in a 6.5gal carboy and rack to a 5gal with no problems, or start a batch in a 5gal and brew a 1 gallon mini-batch on the side so that when I racked to "secondary" I could top off with the extra gallon. I can dig that with each racking leaving behind fewer lees, it would be less of an issue as you went along. That said, you must still lose some cider to the racking equipment and the remainder in the bottom of the original vessel. Do you purge with CO2 before racking, or what?

Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

Veering sharply off topic, I apologize, but:

How do you manage the headspace in your vessels (carboys? buckets? kegs?) with all this racking?

I'll freely admit, it's a risk that I accept. I have made a few gallons of vinegar over the years, but for the most part my ciders turn out great. I've actually thought about whether I should purge the vessels with CO2 before racking, which would be so easy to do. Maybe I should do that. Good idea.

 

[freesoul]

I hate non-sugar sweeteners, even stevia tastes funny to me. How is xylitol?

Greets, new to the forum and cider and was looking for info on racking.

For those who have pets, Xylitol is HIGHLY TOXIC TO DOGS. We have a dog that narrowly survived a poisoning after ingesting some chewing gum that had it. 5 days in the hospital, blood transfusion and almost $6K later she survived. FYI https://www.facebook.com/xylitol.dog /?fref=ts

If you buy bulk Xylitol, treat it like dog poison... it only takes a little

 

[Paps]

Having 3 dogs, i wouldn't even let that stuff on my property let alone in my house/cider.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[ten80]

I have a cider (8% abv) and cyser (12% abv) that I just racked to kegs after being in primary for one whole year in my garage, at seasonal temps of 35-70f. The ciders are very crisp and clear with no off-flavors. Even the pectin has fallen out of suspension after such a long period. My ciders are pressed and inoculated with yeast in early October and the long time in primary gives the ciders time to go through malolactic fermentation as they warm in the summer. Bottling/kegging happens the following fall.

I think the key to long-term aging in primary is to have minimal headspace (I top off mine to the neck before aging) and maintaining a full airlock. I even wrap electrical tape around the bung to make certain that it doesn't pop out and help slow the intrusion of oxygen. Saran-wrap over the top of the airlock, secured with a rubber band, keeps fruit flies out and reduces evaporation of the sanitizer (starsan) solution I fill it with.

I figure that 1 year in the primary is fine because I grew up drinking "cidre brut" in the Normandy region of France and that type of cider is aged in oak barrels for long periods without ill effects. I do not think that yeast autolysis is not an issue unless the fermentation is stored warm for long periods of time. My garage is fairly cool being in Alaska.

 

[SammityP]

I'm the same way, I hate Splenda, aspartame, stevia, acesulfame-potassium, you name it.

But xylitol tastes EXACTLY like real sugar. There's zero chemical flavor from it. But a slight warning as well: the only drawbacks to it are that in high quantities it will give you serious gas, and also, it is very expensive. But other than that, I would recommend it even if you don't like other fake sweeteners, it truly is THAT good.

One other drawback to xylitol if you have dogs: it's "extremely toxic to dogs. Even small amounts of xylitol can cause hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), seizures, liver failure, or even death in dogs." Of course, alcohol isn't exactly healthy for them, either, but most of us don't worry much about that! I do agree about the taste, though.