How do you interpret competition feedback?

[Rob2010SS]

If you were to submit a beer to a couple of competitions and your scores were 33, 35, 39 & 42, would you change the beer to try and score higher, DESPITE being a beer that you absolutely love?

The scores above were from a couple of comps that we submitted our brown ale too. Our brown ale is by far my favorite beer that we make and while I was hoping it would take a medal, it did not. How do you guys approach competition feedback?

These are our first competitions so just kind of curious.

 

[bracconiere]

Personally i'd hire a new judge.....lol

 

[NTexBrewer]

So I brew a light Lager for my father in law. I’ve submitted it in competitions and it generally scores 32ish. I entered it just to see how it would do. The thing is he loves it, I like it and it is the perfect summer time pool Beer easy to brew and consistent results I have no desire to change this recipe.

For other beers I brew, I do look at the comments and think about making changes to score better and possibly medal.

 

[Steveruch]

If you were to submit a beer to a couple of competitions and your scores were 33, 35, 39 & 42, would you change the beer to try and score higher, DESPITE being a beer that you absolutely love?

If you're brewing to score a medal then change it. If you're brewing it for drinking brew as is.

 

[Birrofilo]

No experience or interest in competitions. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
A competition can be interesting if it gives you clues on what is not working well. That will be interesting material, something to mumble on. Too bitter? Diacetyl? Unbalanced? Too many spices? Weird initial aroma? Artificial after-taste? This is interesting feedback.
If it just results in a number, it's a waste of time, or the result of a wrong sense of ego.

Do you want to lay down the right woman, or do you want to win a beauty contest?

 

[Barbarossa]

Do you want to lay down the right woman, or do you want to win a beauty contest?

What if I want the lay down with the right beauty contest winner.

 

[Birrofilo]

What if I want the lay down with the right beauty contest winner.

Then you must be in the jury, not in the contest!

 

[Spikybits]

Comp feedback can get - well subjective. You win some and you lose some. I've had good feedback and I've had feedback that was utter useless garbage (basically you can tell the style is not the judge's cup of tea). I really only heed the constructive feedback - where it seems the judge genuinely is trying to provide guidance or tips to better your beer.

If its a beer you enjoy a lot, you don't need to change it for daily drinking. You can, and should (if you're trying for a medal), brew a competition batch with tweaks.

Took bronze in white IPA at the state fair - 38,39s, low 40s through the rounds - same beer from same batch, bottled in the same run of bottles, didn't even crack 30 at a local brewery hosted comp the next weekend. It could have been garbage judging or it may have been an additional week the beer was subjected to possible poor storage by the competition venue.

Theres plenty of factors that can influence and change your beer once it leaves your hands.

In my experience - personally dropping off beer, and dropping beer off at the last moment before comp close makes the difference. If you think you have a winner, shorting that time your beer sits in that shop cooler, or sitting on the shelf can make all difference.

 

[Kickass]

Our brown ale is by far my favorite beer that we make

Improve it to only suit yourself, unless a strangers opinion is more important.

 

[bkboiler]

Well...I'm not sure I would do much without a more relative comparison.

The best you could get would be if you could taste blind the exact beers the judges tasted and score them and write comments about them. If you then could compare your score sheets with the judges score sheets AND there was a beer that you liked better that they ALSO scored better, THEN I'd change your recipe to more closely align with that one.
Otherwise, IMHO, you're just chasing something blindly unless you are 100% certain you're missing something...
Finding some award winning recipes will get you closer possibly...but it could also get you further away since you KNOW you like your version already.

 

[Dgallo]

For what it’s worth, I have a competition version and a personal version of two of my beers. My Schwarzbier I brew for me has more malt character than the one I enter in competition. You can always do that

 

[bracconiere]

(just sayin')

 

[Zemillard90]

If you like a beer, keep brewing it as is. As others have said judging even the same batch can get quite subjective.

It is hard to look past the ultimate score, but I always value the feedback/comments more. I am frequently impressed on what the judges can pick up on. These comments are what drive me to make actual changes to my process, not necessarily the score received. Congrats on breaking 40 in your first competition! Cheers!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think I just was so focused on getting a medal because it says so much more but in all honesty, the feedback from the judges was solid and positive except for one judge. It’s gotten great feedback from all of our friends who have tried it as well. I would not mind taking @Dgallo advice and having a competition version of the recipe. We’ll see...

 

[bracconiere]

I just was so focused on getting a medal

i always end up with sours trying that..

 

[bwible]

If you were to submit a beer to a couple of competitions and your scores were 33, 35, 39 & 42, would you change the beer to try and score higher, DESPITE being a beer that you absolutely love?

The scores above were from a couple of comps that we submitted our brown ale too. Our brown ale is by far my favorite beer that we make and while I was hoping it would take a medal, it did not. How do you guys approach competition feedback?

These are our first competitions so just kind of curious.

Did you enter this into 2 competitions, where 33 and 35 were the scores from one competition and 39 and 42 were the scores from a different competition? 39, 42 are great scores, and they award ribbons based on the average. So you got a 40.5 average out of those 2 scores. Congratulations, that’s a great score, and usually in the range where you get something. Did you not even get a second or a third place ribbon? If so, there must have been a bunch of other great entries in that category.

As others have said, there are quite a few variables. Everything from entry collection and storage, to judge experience, individual judge’s taste and personal preferences, judge assignments and what other categories the judges had before yours, what the judges had for lunch, and the big one is where/what number your entry was judged within the category and what came before yours. Palate fatigue is real.

Far as judge’s comments, they are what they are. I always felt like I was writing caveman-like comments, basic thoughts and words. Some guys are much more eloquent. Each judge is different and has different flavor thresholds, different likes and dislikes. One judge will tell you your beer reeks of DMS and the guy next to him can’t smell it. One judge will say your beer is too hoppy, the guy next to him will say it’s not hoppy enough. They like to say “needs more maltiness.” Even for beers that are supposed to be hoppy.

One thing to pay attention to for competitions is balance. Brew your beer with the right ingredients for style, pay attention to BU:GU ratios as well as calculated bitterness vs perceived bitterness. Some of this stuff I’ve only learned recently after many years of brewing.

Yeah, it’s one of those things - we all want acknowledgement for our efforts and to know we’re on the right track. I was a judge, passed the exam in 2001. Judged for awhile, entered competitions seriously for awhile. Somewhere I have a box with about 35 ribbons in it, a combination of mostly first place ribbons with some second and third places mixed in. I have one second place NHC. It was all just more “stuff” I had to pack up and take with me when I moved. I don’t even have them displayed or anything.

I haven’t entered competitions or judged since about 2006, mostly because I got a job where I have to work every Saturday and competitions are just about always on Saturdays.

I’m brewing for myself these days and what I like. I don’t care if other people are better brewers than I am - I know many are. I’m not out to “beat anybody.” I don’t care if other people like my beer or don’t like my beer. It’s for me - not them.

The ultimate achievement is to win a best of show prize. I’ve never done it. And today, I’m not putting any of my “clean beers” up against all the garbage categories that are out there now that so many are in love with - 17 categories of IPA, including cloudy beers with flour added, “pastry beers” and other such crap. Everything today is a cloudy, hazy, sour, or all 3.

Beer is supposed to be clear. I never thought I’d see the day where people would make a seperate category in their minds for “clear beer” and look down on it with disdain.

The guidelines are almost completely changed from when I was judging - and not for the better as far as I am concerned. Best of show rounds were never fair to begin with.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Did you enter this into 2 competitions, where 33 and 35 were the scores from one competition and 39 and 42 were the scores from a different competition? 39, 42 are great scores, and they award ribbons based on the average. So you got a 40.5 average out of those 2 scores. Congratulations, that’s a great score, and usually in the range where you get something. Did you not even get a second or a third place ribbon? If so, there must have been a bunch of other great entries in that category.

As others have said, there are quite a few variables. Everything from entry collection and storage, to judge experience, individual judge’s taste and personal preferences, judge assignments and what other categories the judges had before yours, what the judges had for lunch, and the big one is where/what number your entry was judged within the category and what came before yours. Palate fatigue is real.

Yeah, it’s one of those things - we all want acknowledgement for our efforts and to know we’re on the right track. I was a judge, passed the exam in 2001. Judged for awhile, entered competitions seriously for awhile. Somewhere I have a box with about 35 ribbons in it, a combination of mostly first place ribbons with some second and third places mixed in. I have one second place NHC. It was all just more “stuff” I had to pack up and take with me when I moved. I don’t even have them displayed or anything.

I haven’t entered competitions or judged since about 2006. I’m brewing for myself these days and what I like. I don’t care if other people are better brewers than I am - I know many are. I don’t care if other people like my beer or don’t like my beer. It’s for me - not them.

And I’m not putting any of my “clean beers” up against all the garbage categories that are out there now that so many are in love with - 17 categories of ipa’s, including cloudy beers with flour added, “pastry beers” and other such crap.
The guidelines are almost completely changed from when I was judging - and not for the better as far as I am concerned. Best of show rounds were never fair to begin with.

Yes, you have it correct. 2 competitions - one where it scored 33/35 and another where it scored 39/42. I did not receive anything for the 39/42 competition. They even showed an honorable mention (4th place..?) for my category and we didn't get it.

I'm slightly suspicious of how the judging was handled in that one. It was the SNAFU Winterfest comp in Las Vegas. When you look at all the winners, they were almost all SNAFU members with a few exceptions. But oh well, I'm happy with the feedback I received. 3 of the 4 judges thought it was a well done and enjoyable beer with no real flaws.

There will be plenty more competitions to try and enter in the future!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I entered a few comps, including the NHC once. I've gotten everything from best in show to feedback that I can only assume was based on the wrong beer being sampled.

I brewed my first batch in 1993, have been an import/craft beer drinker since the 80's. I have a group of friends who are serious about beer. They travel around the country to go to breweries and attend fests and releases. We all drink very highly regarded beers on a regular basis.

One thing I've learned about comps is this: it's very subjective and, in theory, is mostly about brewing to a finite number of styles. I rarely approach recipe creating with the goal of nailing a particular style (my comp entries were attempts to brew to style). I brew beers that taste good, are interesting to me, and do things that I can't necessarily go to the store and buy.

I can think of a few reasons to enter comps:
1) To build a "resume"...maybe in pursuit of a brewing career
2) To feed your ego as a brewer
3) To get impartial feedback on your brewing

The best way to get the third one is in a homebrew club. Share you beer with other brewers where you drink it side-by-side and discuss the tasting notes. We have several certified judges in our group....I don't brew to style, but I know they have educated palates and can provide sound feedback.

 

[hotbeer]

If you are entering competitions, beer or anything, then it's the judges you have to please. You can brew beer for your own tastes when you are drinking it yourself.

You might use any critique to improve your beers and maybe even keep the qualities and flavors you like in your own beers.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

For better or worse, competitions are very style driven.

I have a recipe in my stack that evolved from an Oatmeal Stout. It has been one of my favorite beers. The feedback I have gotten from my club competitions is "not roasty enough." I decided I would not change the recipe and would just call it an "Oatmeal Porter" and not bother brewing it for a competition.

Judges have some flexibility, but they are also judging against a style guideline. I suspect the feedback you got was a mix of "how to make this a better example of a Brown Ale as described by the guidelines" but also some suggestions that you could use to improve the beer for yourself.

If you are trying to understand a competition score, I strongly recommend you taste a beer with the style guideline in front of you. Evaluate each category and how it matches your beer. If you fill bottles from a keg, be sure to fill a few extra and taste them around the day of the judging.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I guess that's where my struggle is coming from. I read the comments from the judges and honestly, not sure what I would change. Based on the better feedback, seems like an overhaul of the recipe would be in order but there's really not anything called out as a red flag.

Here are the score sheets. What do you guys see as changes? (Just curious...)

(I get a bit defensive of the comment about oxidation from the one judge because I don't think it's there personally. This only saw one fermenter, was not dry hopped, and was bottled using a pressure tip bottle filler right from the fermenter.)

 

[Rob2010SS]

As far as specific changes, the only things I'm seeing are more body and more caramel malts. But each of those came from a different judge so how much of that is personal preference, you know?

 

[Toxxyc]

I've never entered a competition before. I've always brewed beer loosely to a style, but then I change the recipe to suit what I would like in there. So yesterday I entered my first ever homebrew competition.

At first, the competition was just going to be a friendly competition, with no scoring or anything. It would simply have been a "let everyone taste and let everyone decide the winner between the lot" type of competition, and I liked that idea. I knew what I wanted to brew right away, and only after deciding on the beer I wanted to brew did I notice they added the option to be BJCP judged to the competition as well.

That immediately changed my approach, but not by much. Since I've never brewed a beer for a judge before, I decided to go more true to style, and to try and perfect it as best I can. So this is the first beer I'm going to be brewing true to style, and it's also the first time I'm going to try and match what a piece of paper says it should taste like. Finally, I'll use the score to determine how good I am at sticking to guidelines, and that's it. I'm not going to be taking the score as how my beers generally taste. I purely want to find out if there's detrimental issues with my process, and that's it.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Here are the score sheets. What do you guys see as changes? (Just curious...)

If you step back from the score sheets, what areas of your brewing do you think you could work on? Is there anything with this recipe that would make it a better English Brown?

I have not brewed an English Brown in a while, but I recently put some effort into improving my English Porter. I played around with a few yeasts and settled on London Ale fermented around 64F (but there are other good options). A few years ago when I dove into Water Chemistry, it helped all my beers. Before that my dark beers would have been a bit low pH and not enough mineral level (my tap has a decent level of Chloride but getting the Sulfate up to a 1:1 ratio helped). Maybe it was just bias knowing the ingredients, but I felt moving over to English malts helped quite a bit (Crisp Maris Otter base, and I have had good luck with Bairds Crystals).

If you have not done so, it would be worth tracking down a bottle or two of beers on the Commercial Examples list and taste them next to your beer. It might be that you enjoy your beer more, but the judges are looking for a beer with characters like those commercial examples.

The only real "flaws" I see are some pointed out by the second pair of judges. It would be hard to say how much of that is one judge influencing the other. I have been curious if bottle conditioned beer does better or worse in competitions. It seems that there is always the chance of sediment being roused with poor handling or pouring. If you shipped the beers, the conditions on the trip are a big variable. Do you know if these judges were together drinking from the same bottle?

 

[Rob2010SS]

If you step back from the score sheets, what areas of your brewing do you think you could work on? Is there anything with this recipe that would make it a better English Brown?

I have not brewed an English Brown in a while, but I recently put some effort into improving my English Porter. I played around with a few yeasts and settled on London Ale fermented around 64F (but there are other good options). A few years ago when I dove into Water Chemistry, it helped all my beers. Before that my dark beers would have been a bit low pH and not enough mineral level (my tap has a decent level of Chloride but getting the Sulfate up to a 1:1 ratio helped). Maybe it was just bias knowing the ingredients, but I felt moving over to English malts helped quite a bit (Crisp Maris Otter base, and I have had good luck with Bairds Crystals).

If you have not done so, it would be worth tracking down a bottle or two of beers on the Commercial Examples list and taste them next to your beer. It might be that you enjoy your beer more, but the judges are looking for a beer with characters like those commercial examples.

The only real "flaws" I see are some pointed out by the second pair of judges. It would be hard to say how much of that is one judge influencing the other. I have been curious if bottle conditioned beer does better or worse in competitions. It seems that there is always the chance of sediment being roused with poor handling or pouring. If you shipped the beers, the conditions on the trip are a big variable. Do you know if these judges were together drinking from the same bottle?

It's an interesting question - what areas of my brewing could I work on. We take great pride in the beer we make and I like to think that we're significantly more critical of our beers than other people.

We start our beers from RO water and build the water profile up based on what we're brewing. We do NOT degas our brewing water as of right now though. We do single infusion mashes every time. I'm a stickler for hitting numbers such as mash temp and pH and I monitor throughout the mash. Mash temps I usually nail spot on but with pH, I've been as much as .15 pts off in my est vs actual measurement. We usually try to buy our grains as close to brew day as possible but they are sometimes purchased and milled up to 1 week in advance. When it comes to the boil, nothing of significance there. Chilling usually takes a bit longer than I'd like but that's because I haven't pulled the trigger on the right CFC chiller. Chilling the wort from boil can take up to 30 mins. Sanitation is on par in my opinion, I'm very neurotic about it. Yeast management is one area where I think we could improve. Right now, it's based all on calculators and if I don't have time for a starter, we buy multiple yeast packs and pitch accordingly. Eventually, would like to get more into yeast counting to make sure we're pitching enough. Our fermentations are controlled in a SSBT unitank using glycol and the cone wrap heaters. My knowledge of yeast and how to get different characteristics out of them could be improved.

There are definitely things that we could work on. We are not perfect by any means.

The only other English Brown we compared ours to is Samuel Smiths Nut Brown. To my palate, they were SOOOO close. I couldn't even pin point the differences and I was trying them side by side. However, I do struggle picking out flavors in a beer sometimes so my palate is not refined like some. Other than that, I have not tried other English Browns.

In regards to these bottles, they were not bottle conditioned. We carbed in the tank and filled right from the fermenter using a pressure tip filler (NB's Last Straw Filler). Yes, these were shipped to Las Vegas from Illinois. I can also say that the tastings were all done in person at a brewery in Las Vegas - they live streamed it on facebook.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Is there anything with this recipe that would make it a better English Brown?

I think this is the key... I have only had 2 english browns - ours and Samuel Smiths. I think it might be that while I love our beer and think it's great, I just don't know the style as well as I think I do. To me, when I drink ours and I'm reading the BJCP guidelines as I'm drinking it, it's a perfect match. But maybe there's something I'm missing.

 

[bwible]

I guess that's where my struggle is coming from. I read the comments from the judges and honestly, not sure what I would change. Based on the better feedback, seems like an overhaul of the recipe would be in order but there's really not anything called out as a red flag.

Here are the score sheets. What do you guys see as changes? (Just curious...)

(I get a bit defensive of the comment about oxidation from the one judge because I don't think it's there personally. This only saw one fermenter, was not dry hopped, and was bottled using a pressure tip bottle filler right from the fermenter.)


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This is what I’ve seen SO many times. The first sheet says high hop bitterness but acceptable, the second sheet says malt forward beer. They both say good medium body and then the second guy says could use more body. Of what value is that feedback? To me, none.

If you like the recipe, nothing says you have to change it. And even if you did change it and you re-enter it in another competition on a different day, you will get 2 different judges from these guys and who knows what those judges will write? It’s hard to brew “for the judges” when you don’t know who “the judge” will be or what they personally like or dislike.

Fas as a recipe overhaul, you scored a combined 40.5. Thats not anything that requires an overhaul. Now if they gave you a combined 26...

 

[bwible]

I have not tried other English Browns.

Samuel Smiths is a good one. Newcastle shouldn’t be hard to find

 

[CascadesBrewer]

It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. Wild Bill really liked your beer and provided some good feedback. I am not a huge fan of the second score sheet layout (those sliders don't provide much value), but even with a flaw or two mentioned your score is still in the "Very Good" range.

The question I would have would be if the flaws reported actually exist in the beer and is something to address. If the flaws only existed in the beers that they judged, which may or may not be something you can address and may not matter if you are not brewing for competitions. Or if you can just write it off as a flaw that somebody really digging for something "made up".

I would also note that it can be hard to really evaluate a beer with a few oz in a small cup vs enjoying a full pint or two.

 

[bwible]

I guess that's where my struggle is coming from. I read the comments from the judges and honestly, not sure what I would change. Based on the better feedback, seems like an overhaul of the recipe would be in order but there's really not anything called out as a red flag.

Here are the score sheets. What do you guys see as changes? (Just curious...)

(I get a bit defensive of the comment about oxidation from the one judge because I don't think it's there personally. This only saw one fermenter, was not dry hopped, and was bottled using a pressure tip bottle filler right from the fermenter.)


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Rather than overhaul the recipe try making one or two minor or very minor changes. If you want more maltiness, increase the mash temp a few degrees. Or add a few more ounces of character malt. If they want more hops, and you know you’re not far off, try adding 1/4 oz more hops somewhere in the boil. Run your recipe through the preceived bitterness vs calculated bitterness calculator. Yeast would be something to play with for this style, so many good ones to pick from. I’m a Wyeast guy, they have multiple recommendations. Using 1968 instead of 1028 for example will make a different beer. (I don’t know what yeast you used.) I wouldn’t start over from scratch if you’re that close.