How do I achieve malt flavor like a micro brewery?

[RichBrewer]

I'm to the point where I can make a very clean good tasting beer. The problem I'm having though is that I just can't get the maltiness that I want. Every time I try a micro amber, red, brown, or porter from a good brewery the malt profile always makes me happy. When I drink my home brew I get a hint of that malt I'm looking for but it is faint and doesn't last.
How does a brewer bring out that wonderful malt profile?
Here's a recipe for my porter. It is a good beer but I get the roastyness from the black patent and just a hint of malt behind that. I did a single infusion mash at 154 degrees for this one. OG was 1.055 and FG 1.016.
Anyone see something in here I could do differently?

Porter No. 1

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.63
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.27
Anticipated SRM: 35.2
Anticipated IBU: 37.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
55.4 7.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
15.8 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt(2-row) America 1.035 6
5.9 0.75 lbs. Belgian Candi Syrup (dark) Belgium 1.038 80
4.0 0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033 2
4.0 0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
4.0 0.50 lbs. Crystal 60L America 1.034 60
4.0 0.50 lbs. Crystal 90L America 1.033 90
4.0 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.0 0.38 lbs. Black Patent Malt America 1.028 525

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 26.9 60 min.
1.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 9.1 30 min.
0.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Whole 5.00 1.5 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1028 London Ale

 

[Spyk'd]

As I understand it, the yeast is a key component to bringing out the malt character. You're using a pretty good yeast there, but I'd replace the London with London III. You'll notice a big jump in maltiness. Also, I'd cut out the Crystal and replace with all Special "B".


That's what I do.

 

[Reverend JC]

Perhaps mash at a few degrees higher. get those long chains of sugar forming. Wont that increase the matiness?

 

[Blender]

I have also at certain times felt the same way. Like when I had a great Brown Ale in Canada which was very malty. I actually think a lot of it has to do with the processes they can do on a larger commercial scale and to a lesser extent ingredients.

 

[Pumbaa]

Try getting rid of that 2 row and using Vienna as your base malt and aim for IBU's more around the minimum of the style. I'd bump that mash temp upto about 158 too, less fermentables means the yeasties cant eat up all the malty goodness

 

[mysterio]

I would say use the best quality base malt you can find. I use maris otter most of the time and its great in ales but a little too malty for some lagers. If you cant get anything else, try a 50.50 blend of pale ale malt and Munich.

Munich malt, aromatic malt and melanoidin malt are also very useful.

 

[sonvolt]

It looks like I am going to make a lot of people mad by saying this . . . but . . . bumping up your mash temp will not increase the maltiness of your beer. Malt is a character of the grain rather than sugars. By increasing your mash temp, you will increase the unfermentable sugars in your wort. This will increase body, moutfeel, and perhaps sweetness. Now, these things may contribute to the perception of maltiness, but you aren't going to get that really complex and pleasant maltiness that your palate is looking for by bumping up your mash temp. After all, you were already mashing at 153.

When increasing maltiness . . . look to your malt bill [surprise! :fro: ). Experiment with different malts - up the % of Munich and/or Vienna in your recipes. Experiment with those specialty malts like Special B or Special Roast, etc. Better yet - ask the brewer at one of the micros you are talking about what malts he uses/suggests for establishing a malt profile.

 

[the_bird]

Where are you getting your ingredients from? I wonder if they could be a little stale, if that would be impacting some of the malt character.

 

[david_42]

I'd try the same recipe with this yeast. The fruity notes can amplify the malty flavor, much the way a little vanilla can boost chocolate products. If you are getting consistent results, changing one thing at a time is a good idea. That's why I'm doing the Schwartzbier/Black ale experiment.

1332 Northwest Ale Yeast. One of the classic ale strains from the Northwest U.S. Breweries. Produces a malty and mildly fruity ale with good depth and complexity. Flocculation - high; apparent attenuation 67-71%. (65-75° F, 18-24° C)

 

[Brewiz]

I would get rid of the 60/90 and replace it with 40 and bump it up a bit. I was having the same problem but with my ESB and that's what I did. It has seemed to help.

 

[jeffg]

one other thought--chocolate malt is pretty astringent tasting can overwhelm more subtle flavors. You could scale it back or add it to the last ten mintues of your mash along with the black patent...you may sacrifice some of the classic porter flavor but it might help...

 

[Evan!]

I know it's the common backbone of many a stout, but roasted barley is a great way to get a roasty malt character, even in a porter.

You can also try some Victory or other toasted malt, along with the aforementioned Vienna, Melanoidin, Munich, Aromatic, etc.

 

[Dr Malt]

RichBrewer:

To provide some input here, I need a little better description of what you are looking for in terms of "maltiness" like in commercial beers. Are you referring to the malt flavor associated with base and Munich malts or are you referring to the caramel, toffee, raisin, nutty, woody, etc character of higher kilned and roasted malts? If you are making a lager and you want to enhance the maltiness, increase the inclusion of Munich malt and use some Munich 20. However, if you are making a Porter, there are a complex of malt flavors you will get with your recipe, so I don't know which you wish to enhance. One thing I can say is that the character of the malt can be over powered by the hops and hop bitterness. You may want to begin by reducing you final hopping amounts and dropping your bitterness by about 5-6 IBUs.

Let me know what malt character you are seeking and I can make some recommendations.

Dr Malt

 

[RichBrewer]

Thanks for all of the great suggestions! This was as I feared. I very complicated question. I will be looking back at this and trying some of your suggestions.
Thanks!

 

[RichBrewer]

RichBrewer:

To provide some input here, I need a little better description of what you are looking for in terms of "maltiness" like in commercial beers. Are you referring to the malt flavor associated with base and Munich malts or are you referring to the caramel, toffee, raisin, nutty, woody, etc character of higher kilned and roasted malts? If you are making a lager and you want to enhance the maltiness, increase the inclusion of Munich malt and use some Munich 20. However, if you are making a Porter, there are a complex of malt flavors you will get with your recipe, so I don't know which you wish to enhance. One thing I can say is that the character of the malt can be over powered by the hops and hop bitterness. You may want to begin by reducing you final hopping amounts and dropping your bitterness by about 5-6 IBUs.

Let me know what malt character you are seeking and I can make some recommendations.

Dr Malt

I'm not sure but I think I'm looking for the caramel, toffee, raisin, nutty character. Not so much the roasted or burnt tones from the chocolate and black patent. I put those in to make the beer within the guidelines of a robust porter. Again, I like the beer but it just doesn't have that flavor that a good micro does.

Thanks!

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm not sure but I think I'm looking for the caramel, toffee, raisin, nutty character. Not so much the roasted or burnt tones from the chocolate and black patent. I put those in to make the beer within the guidelines of a robust porter. Again, I like the beer but it just doesn't have that flavor that a good micro does.

Thanks!

Hey Rich I posted my porter base for my roobeer ale. I think from what you are discribing it may be a good start for you to tweek . . .I'll try to find it for ya and will add it here as an edit . . .

OK I found it. I'm using a baltic porter as a baseline but it's close to a robust . . . use and or tweek as you see fit. Up the hops and cut back on some of the grain bill and it fits into the robust style of porter

Rootbeer porter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

12-C Porter, Baltic Porter

Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.090
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 17 Max Clr: 30 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 17.75
Anticipated OG: 1.085 Plato: 20.38
Anticipated SRM: 31.9
Anticipated IBU: 8.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.072 SG 17.51 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.7 9.00 lbs. Vienna Malt America 71.27 4
16.9 3.00 lbs. CaraMunich 60 France 69.19 60
9.9 1.75 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 60.88 120
8.5 1.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 67.12 2
8.5 1.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 67.12 2
5.6 1.00 lbs. Flaked Barley America 65.04 2

Potential represented as Yield, Coarse Grind As Is.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 4.9 30 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.8 10 min.

 

[RichBrewer]

Now that is quite a bit different than mine. I wouldn't mind at all that the chocolate and black patent are missing.

Hey Rich I posted my porter base for my roobeer ale. I think from what you are discribing it may be a good start for you to tweek . . .I'll try to find it for ya and will add it here as an edit . . .

OK I found it. I'm using a baltic porter as a baseline but it's close to a robust . . . use and or tweek as you see fit. Up the hops and cut back on some of the grain bill and it fits into the robust style of porter

Rootbeer porter

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

12-C Porter, Baltic Porter
Min OG: 1.060 Max OG: 1.090
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 40
Min Clr: 17 Max Clr: 30 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 17.75
Anticipated OG: 1.085 Plato: 20.38
Anticipated SRM: 31.9
Anticipated IBU: 8.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 5.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.072 SG 17.51 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.7 9.00 lbs. Vienna Malt America 71.27 4
16.9 3.00 lbs. CaraMunich 60 France 69.19 60
9.9 1.75 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 60.88 120
8.5 1.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 67.12 2
8.5 1.50 lbs. Flaked Oats America 67.12 2
5.6 1.00 lbs. Flaked Barley America 65.04 2

Potential represented as Yield, Coarse Grind As Is.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 4.9 30 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.8 10 min.

 

[andre the giant]

I'd add Munich malt to your recipies in order to increase the "malty" taste in your beers. I had the same situation happen. I brewed several AG batches and a particular flavor I could only describe as maltiness was missing. I went to the local brewpub and the porter had lots of the flavor I was looking for, so I asked the brewmaster. He said he uses lots of Munich malt to get that character. I haven't had a problem getting malty beers ever since.

Munich malt is awesome!

 

[cweston]

No one has mentioned decoction. I've never tried it, but supposedly it yields very malty beers. Kaiser and Baron von Beegee have had some long, detailed threads about it here you should be able to find.

 

[Dr Malt]

Rich:

From you comments, it seems to me you are looking for increasing the complexity of your malt flavor in terms of the roasted notes. I went back and looked at your Porter recipe and you have a nice inclusion of some specialty malts which add an array of roasted malt flavors. You also have some grains that are included but are by their nature, not flavor contributors such as the Belgian candi sugar, CaraPils and Black malt. CaraPils are designed to be low in color (1.5L), and neutral in flavor. CaraPils are for body and foam stability. Black malt is basically a color additive or a source of color. In a beer such as Porters and Stouts, it is great for color but not a large flavor contributor.

To increase the complexity of your malt flavor in your Porter, I would first suggest you drop you IBUs down to about 5-6 units and see if you notice more malt complexity. A few other things I would suggest is replace some of you Munich 10 (I assume you are using Munich 10) with Munich 20. Say adding about 5% or so on Munich 20 in place of some Munich 10. For added complexity you may want to add either a special roast malt at about a 50L (Briess has one) and/or a biscuit malt. If you want a little coffee character, a few ounces of roasted barley will do the trick, but only a little (2 - 4 oz).

I hope this helps.

Dr Malt

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

No one has mentioned decoction. I've never tried it, but supposedly it yields very malty beers. Kaiser and Baron von Beegee have had some long, detailed threads about it here you should be able to find.

I was thinking about that today. The only beer I had even a semi-controlled experiment on was my Hefeweizen. TBH, malty isn't the description that jumps in my head for a Hefeweizen. The decoction upped my efficiency, but in the future I will just do infusion mashes for Hefeweizens.

I did decoct an Oktoberfest which had a great maltiness to it, but it also had a significant amount of Munich malt in it, and I did not do any kind of non-decoction control. Same story with a Doppelbock I have fermenting now.

I do observe nice darkening of the malt and wort and hence deduce that I have Maillard reactions above and beyond the kilning (that and $4.99 will get you a vente quattro with whipped cream).

Bottom line...inconclusive. But decoctions are more fun than a barrel of monkeys so I must recommend them.

 

[dcbrewmeister]

I was thinking about that today. The only beer I had even a semi-controlled experiment on was my Hefeweizen. TBH, malty isn't the description that jumps in my head for a Hefeweizen. The decoction upped my efficiency, but in the future I will just do infusion mashes for Hefeweizens.

I did decoct an Oktoberfest which had a great maltiness to it, but it also had a significant amount of Munich malt in it, and I did not do any kind of non-decoction control. Same story with a Doppelbock I have fermenting now.

I do observe nice darkening of the malt and wort and hence deduce that I have Maillard reactions above and beyond the kilning (that and $4.99 will get you a vente quattro with whipped cream).

Bottom line...inconclusive. But decoctions are more fun than a barrel of monkeys so I must recommend them.

Now you're just being a smart a$$ J/K but I've been reading the whole thread just checking to make sure no body had mentioned it before I did. A decoction is a definate way to put maltiness into a brew.I do it on my doppelbock and only do it with a helper. I do a triple decoction and it makes a nice malty flavor.

warning - do not try a decoction on your own, it may be hazardous to your brews health.

 

[RichBrewer]

Now you're just being a smart a$$ J/K but I've been reading the whole thread just checking to make sure no body had mentioned it before I did. A decoction is a definate way to put maltiness into a brew.I do it on my doppelbock and only do it with a helper. I do a triple decoction and it makes a nice malty flavor.

warning - do not try a decoction on your own, it may be hazardous to your brews health.

I'm sure that what you say is true for lagers but I doubt that micro breweries do decoction mashes for their ales. I might have to give it a try sometime just to see but I'm not sure decoction is the answer.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[RichBrewer]

Rich:

Black malt is basically a color additive or a source of color. In a beer such as Porters and Stouts, it is great for color but not a large flavor contributor.

To increase the complexity of your malt flavor in your Porter, I would first suggest you drop you IBUs down to about 5-6 units and see if you notice more malt complexity. A few other things I would suggest is replace some of you Munich 10 (I assume you are using Munich 10) with Munich 20. Say adding about 5% or so on Munich 20 in place of some Munich 10. For added complexity you may want to add either a special roast malt at about a 50L (Briess has one) and/or a biscuit malt. If you want a little coffee character, a few ounces of roasted barley will do the trick, but only a little (2 - 4 oz).

I hope this helps.

Dr Malt

Actually the black patent adds a lot of flavor. The small amount I used in the porter gives a very noticeable roasted almost burnt flavor to the beer. I believe for a robust porter that flavor is correct for style. It is definitely not a malty flavor.
I've thought about reducing the hops a bit and I think I will experiment with my next batch but the micro beers I've tried have had a definite hoppiness to them. Not overpowering but noticeable. Not only in bitterness but also aroma and flavor.
I'm going to look at the changes in malt that you and others have suggested.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Dr Malt]

RB:

I just read an article on commercial mashing that is related to your search for increased maltiness that may be of interest. This article comes from a review of current malts and mashing procedures done at a well established European University Brewing Research Department. I pass it along FYI.

Many homebrewers have some fantasy image of immense malty flavours emanating from a decoction, but the reality is that decoction imparts only a subtle flavour difference. A no sparge will outdo a decoction every time! Adding a little additional münich, vienna or melanoidin malt will do the same.

It is now realized that oxidation during mashing has several unwanted effects. Wort gets stale. Proteins containing free-Sulphur Hydrogen groups are oxidized and sulphur-sulphur bonds then formed between them can cause these proteins to form a coating on starch and malt endosperm cell wall fragments. As a result proteolysis, amylolysis and Beta-glucan breakdown are partially inhibited, causing a decrease in the amount of soluble extract obtained, and slows down mash separation. Oxidation of the mash also results in the oxidation of polyphenols. This causes increased colour and astringent bitterness. Even worse, lipid oxidizing enzymes oxidize unsaturated fatty acids and form products that accelerate stale flavours in the finished beer. When using dry milling and dumping malt in through the top of the mashtun air is trapped in the husks again increasing oxidizing potential. Our tiny mashtuns have loads of surface area with air exposure per volume, compared to enclosed mashtuns and bottom filling of big brewers. Good quality sweet wort has a fresh flavour and sparkling quality. This freshness is greatly diminished with long mashing times. Wort tastes dull and bland after a few hours and is irreversible damaged due to oxidation processes. The impact on the final beer is a lack of certain positive flavours – less maltiness, greater astringency and overall dull flavour.

It would appear long mash times can reduce maltiness due to oxidation. Perhaps doing the shortest mash possible as long as you get conversion will increase the commercial maltiness you are seeking as well as recipes adjustments.

Dr Malt

 

[boo boo]

There are a few brewers who do mash for a short time. I don't remember now why they did this.

But if you want a maltier flavor then why not just add more malt to the mash and drop more of the adjunts? Less flavor hops might also up the maltiness.

 

[speed]

I have always put the water in the mash tun first and then added the grain, should i put the grain in first to decrease oxidation. I would think i would have more dough balls that way.

 

[Beermaker]

Practice, practice, practice. The more you work with your system, the better you can manipulate your beer to what your looking for.

 

[RichBrewer]

I have always put the water in the mash tun first and then added the grain, should i put the grain in first to decrease oxidation. I would think i would have more dough balls that way.

I would think that dry crushed malt against your false bottom, screen, or manifold would lead to stuck sparges.

 

[RichBrewer]

RB:

I just read an article on commercial mashing that is related to your search for increased maltiness that may be of interest. This article comes from a review of current malts and mashing procedures done at a well established European University Brewing Research Department. I pass it along FYI.

Many homebrewers have some fantasy image of immense malty flavours emanating from a decoction, but the reality is that decoction imparts only a subtle flavour difference. A no sparge will outdo a decoction every time! Adding a little additional münich, vienna or melanoidin malt will do the same.

It is now realized that oxidation during mashing has several unwanted effects. Wort gets stale. Proteins containing free-Sulphur Hydrogen groups are oxidized and sulphur-sulphur bonds then formed between them can cause these proteins to form a coating on starch and malt endosperm cell wall fragments. As a result proteolysis, amylolysis and Beta-glucan breakdown are partially inhibited, causing a decrease in the amount of soluble extract obtained, and slows down mash separation. Oxidation of the mash also results in the oxidation of polyphenols. This causes increased colour and astringent bitterness. Even worse, lipid oxidizing enzymes oxidize unsaturated fatty acids and form products that accelerate stale flavours in the finished beer. When using dry milling and dumping malt in through the top of the mashtun air is trapped in the husks again increasing oxidizing potential. Our tiny mashtuns have loads of surface area with air exposure per volume, compared to enclosed mashtuns and bottom filling of big brewers. Good quality sweet wort has a fresh flavour and sparkling quality. This freshness is greatly diminished with long mashing times. Wort tastes dull and bland after a few hours and is irreversible damaged due to oxidation processes. The impact on the final beer is a lack of certain positive flavours – less maltiness, greater astringency and overall dull flavour.

It would appear long mash times can reduce maltiness due to oxidation. Perhaps doing the shortest mash possible as long as you get conversion will increase the commercial maltiness you are seeking as well as recipes adjustments.

Dr Malt

I might have to give this a try on my next batch. Maybe a 45 minute mash?

 

[dcbrewmeister]

I might have to give this a try on my next batch. Maybe a 45 minute mash?

Sure - but maybe you also need to make changes to your recipe also, I doubt just mashing different is going to give you what you want.

It hard to make one style of beer match another style of beer without just making the other style.

In other words, don't try to make an pale ale into a bock...just make the bock.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

I might have to give this a try on my next batch. Maybe a 45 minute mash?

How long do you usually mash for?

This is interesting. Last week I did my JulaiBock and I was a little pressed for time so I checked the mash constantly until I had conversion and sparged immediately. The total mash time was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30 minutes. It'll be interesting to see how this one comes out - especially since Maibocks are supposed to be really malty. Just have to wait a few months to find out...

ARRGH! Another brew theory to test!!!!

:cross:

 

[RichBrewer]

How long do you usually mash for?

This is interesting. Last week I did my JulaiBock and I was a little pressed for time so I checked the mash constantly until I had conversion and sparged immediately. The total mash time was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30 minutes. It'll be interesting to see how this one comes out - especially since Maibocks are supposed to be really malty. Just have to wait a few months to find out...

ARRGH! Another brew theory to test!!!!

:cross:

I've always mashed for an hour but I'm seriously reconsidering that now.