Hopstands/Whirlpool

[brew703]

I am looking to brew a Zombie Dust clone for my daughter. I want to cut back on the IBU's to the 50 range but don't want to lose the grapefruit flavor.
My kettle does not have a port for a pump so I plan to just stir with my spoon for 15 min after adding the flameout hops and let sit for 30 minutes.

Few questions. I plan to use this recipe, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=303478.
If I eliminate all hop additions except the 15 min and add the rest at flameout , then manual whirlpool for 15 min would this still produce the great citra flavor?

I am also confused on the temp at which to start the whirlpool. I know there are different opinions on this. I want to maximize flavor/aroma. Would I just add at my hops at flameout or would it be best to drop temps to 170 then begin the whirlpool?

Would I also add the dry hop amount to the whirlpool? I'm not sure if I still need to dry hop when whirlpooling.

If it is best to drop temps to 170 would I leave the IC in the wort while whirlpooling?

Thanks in advance.

 

[slym2none]

If you don't want any (at least, very little) IBUs, put the hops in at 170, not flameout.

Don't add the dry-hops to the whirlpool. They go in like normal, after fermentation is complete.

Everything else, I cannot answer, but there will be someone who can.

 

[user 204491]

I'd thought about changing the ZD recipe to use whirlpool instead of all late editions and see how it turned out.

I'd recommend reading this BYO article which does a really good job of explaining the different temperatures you can use and how they manifest in terms of bitterness and hop aroma and flavor.

I'm by no means a whirlpooling expert, but I would probably start by...

- Keep both the FWH and 15 minute additions as they are
- Double the amounts of the 10 and 5 minute additions; however, move that to be your first whirlpool addition in the 190-200F range for about 30 minutes
- Double the flame out addition but move that to your second whirlpool in the 160-170F range, for about 15 mintues
- Keep the dry hops as-is

Hope that helps!

 

[bkboiler]

my personal opinion is to do hop stands at 170 by chilling down to that temp and then holding it there for 30-45 minutes. hotter that 175F, like the BYO article says, you will start isomerizing and adding bitterness. imho, that's what flameout hops are for.
colder than 150 and its contributing more to aroma than flavor. imho, that's what dry hops are for.
just my $.02. oh, and I just let it sit, no stirring for me.

 

[iijakii]

 

[gotbags-10]

I've brewed the ZD recipe many times. I currently use a .25 oz Fwh addition then 4 oz at FO and 4 oz at 165. I also use 2 oz dry hop. I have a pump so I start the whirlpool at FO. I know the fwh addition is low but you will make up some of those ibu's with the FO addition. This is very smooth for me. Hard to tell but I would guess it in the 50-60 ibu's

 

[JonM]

Do you have a pump? Because I figured out a $12 solution that lets me recirculate without a kettle port.

 

[brew703]

I have no pump. Thinking about getting another kettle later in the year that will be equipped with a pump.

 

[brew703]

I've brewed the ZD recipe many times. I currently use a .25 oz Fwh addition then 4 oz at FO and 4 oz at 165. I also use 2 oz dry hop. I have a pump so I start the whirlpool at FO. I know the fwh addition is low but you will make up some of those ibu's with the FO addition. This is very smooth for me. Hard to tell but I would guess it in the 50-60 ibu's

I'm looking for that smooth bite as my daughter isn't into the IPA yet.
My whirlpool will have to be the manual kind.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I think you can very easily do this method without a pump. Just stir and sit

On my last IPA I took a two step method and did half the finishing hops at flameout and half at 170F, with a 30 minute step for each. The flavor profile is great, very rounded and complex. This was all mosaic.

I think two steps are important because you get some initial bitterness and bite from the flameout edition, but your lower temp addition gives great flavor and some aroma without added bitterness. I've done beers without a straight flameout addition and they came out a little too "soft" for me, even with modifying gypsum levels to 200+.

On the recent experimental homebrewing podcast they are looking for experimenters to do a whirlpool at as low as 120 vs a higher temp with the idea being you're going to pull lots of delicious hop oils out without volatilizing them. I've only gone as low as 165 so far, but really tempted to try that out.

 

[brew703]

I think you can very easily do this method without a pump. Just stir and sit

On my last IPA I took a two step method and did half the finishing hops at flameout and half at 170F, with a 30 minute step for each. The flavor profile is great, very rounded and complex. This was all mosaic.

I think two steps are important because you get some initial bitterness and bite from the flameout edition, but your lower temp addition gives great flavor and some aroma without added bitterness. I've done beers without a straight flameout addition and they came out a little too "soft" for me, even with modifying gypsum levels to 200+.

On the recent experimental homebrewing podcast they are looking for experimenters to do a whirlpool at as low as 120 vs a higher temp with the idea being you're going to pull lots of delicious hop oils out without volatilizing them. I've only gone as low as 165 so far, but really tempted to try that out.

I may go ahead and try a two step whirlpool. Since I'm doing this manually, would I add half at FO then stir for say 15, let sit for 30 minutes then drop temp to 170 add remaining FO hops and stir again for 15 min then allow to sit for another 30 min?

Also I saw a YouTube video and the guy added a ton of hops at FO, I think 7 oz and let it sit for 30 min or so. There were a lot of hop oils on the surface. Would you stir that up or skim off before racking to carboy?

 

[Lazer Wolf Brewing]

Curious about all of this and the OPs last question: do you leave the IC in while stirring? I'm planning a 2.5g ZD clone and am thinking it might make stirring difficult.

Also, is at the moment I only have a CFC, any recommendations on how to cool the wort down below 170? I'm thinking about getting an IC but not sure yet.

Also also, since it seems pretty commonplace to let the wort sit at high temps for up to an hour for hop stands, I'm guessing the DMS buildup concept has been more or less debunked?

If this hijacking the thread, please ignore me

 

[GRBC]

You don't need a pump. Flame out, cool to your desired WP temp (if applicable), drop the hops in, stir for 30 seconds just to make sure they are mixed/wet, put the lid on & let it sit. I would not stir after the hops have soaked for a while & the wort has cooled some or you will stir up all the trub that has begun to settle.

Leave the IC in, or you can recirc the wort from the output of your CFC back into your BK to cool to WP temps (you do need a pump for that). In either case, add the IC or start the recirc at 15 minutes left in the boil to sanitize.

 

[brew703]

Curious about all of this and the OPs last question: do you leave the IC in while stirring? I'm planning a 2.5g ZD clone and am thinking it might make stirring difficult.

Also, is at the moment I only have a CFC, any recommendations on how to cool the wort down below 170? I'm thinking about getting an IC but not sure yet.

Also also, since it seems pretty commonplace to let the wort sit at high temps for up to an hour for hop stands, I'm guessing the DMS buildup concept has been more or less debunked?

If this hijacking the thread, please ignore me

When do you plan on brewing your batch? I'm at least a week or two out. If you do brew please post as I would like to know what you decide as for as the whirlpool.
At the moment, I'll add a FWH addition then the rest will be in the whirlpool.

 

[ncbrewer]

Also also, since it seems pretty commonplace to let the wort sit at high temps for up to an hour for hop stands, I'm guessing the DMS buildup concept has been more or less debunked?

The BYO article linked in a previous post says "I have never had dimethyl sulfide (DMS) issues with any of the beers I have performed a hop stand on and have always left the lid on. If using a Pilsner malt or other DMS-prone, lightly-kilned base malt, you may want to increase your boil time to 90 minutes." So I guess it's debunked. I've never had a problem with it either.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I may go ahead and try a two step whirlpool. Since I'm doing this manually, would I add half at FO then stir for say 15, let sit for 30 minutes then drop temp to 170 add remaining FO hops and stir again for 15 min then allow to sit for another 30 min?

Also I saw a YouTube video and the guy added a ton of hops at FO, I think 7 oz and let it sit for 30 min or so. There were a lot of hop oils on the surface. Would you stir that up or skim off before racking to carboy?

That would work! I don't think you really need to stir that much, a minute or two at each addition or every once in a while should be fine.

I would not skim! You want all that goodness in there

Also also, since it seems pretty commonplace to let the wort sit at high temps for up to an hour for hop stands, I'm guessing the DMS buildup concept has been more or less debunked?

I've done a two hour heated hop stand, covered. No DMS :rockin:

 

[slym2none]

I thought the boil is what drove off the precursors to DMS...

 

[moreb33rplz]

How do folks here balance long whirlpools and cold break? Is it still possible if you chill quickly from 170?

 

[pdog44450]

Not pertaining to the specific recipe, but I love doing flameout additions and waiting 10 minutes before starting to cool. I have dropped to 170 then done a hop stand but I prefer the former.

I've never had Zombie Dust, but I did brew a grapefruit beer with grapefruit skin (be careful to remove all the white pith) and boiled the chunks of skin @5 minutes and it came through nicely in the final product, perhaps something you're interested in doing.

 

[Lazer Wolf Brewing]

I thought the boil is what drove off the precursors to DMS...

From my research, conventional wisdom states that DMS starts building back up in the wort as it sits at high temps after the boil. I think this is one of those widely accept wives tales that has been debunked in recent years. But as far as I can tell, there are still many people who think you need to chill your wort as soon as possible after the boil

 

[ncbrewer]

From my research, conventional wisdom states that DMS starts building back up in the wort as it sits at high temps after the boil. I think this is one of those widely accept wives tales that has been debunked in recent years. But as far as I can tell, there are still many people who think you need to chill your wort as soon as possible after the boil

An example of conventional wisdom: From http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/boiling-and-cooling/cooling-the-wort, "There are also the previously mentioned sulfur compounds that evolve from the wort while it is hot. If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer." A highly respected source, but it seems to be outdated.

 

[GRBC]

An example of conventional wisdom: From http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/boiling-and-cooling/cooling-the-wort, "There are also the previously mentioned sulfur compounds that evolve from the wort while it is hot. If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer." A highly respected source, but it seems to be outdated.

Things have indeed changed since then. That myth has been busted:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/08/update-lab-data-on-pils-malt-boil-length-exbeeriment/

I wouldn't worry about putting the lid on after the boil.

 

[radwizard]

I have been leaving the lid on during Hop stands at Flame out. I also remove the hop spider, and all the previous additions. I use beer smith to measure my IBU's. When making my recipe I get everything dialed in in terms of IBU's - including the measurement for the hop stand, then I over-shoot the hop stand IBU's by about 15 using the "time of steeping" setting in beer smith. From my experience, beer smith over-shoots the IBU's of a hop stand. I feel like I am pretty close to my targets using that method.

I also do another (bigger) hop whirlppol at 165. I think you can get really good flavors from this whirlpool in combination from the steep and dry hopping.

I use an immersion chiller. I used to throw it in the kettle at about 30 minutes, but stopped doing this. It started getting in the way with the hop stand and spider. I keep it in a bucket with starsan next to the kettle. I put it in to bring the wort to the whirl pool stage, add the hops, stir the whirlpool for the given time, then put the chiller back in to finish the job. I dont notice any difference in my cold break.

I dont get the boiling you chiller thing. It is pretty easy to clean, and I can experiment different techniques if it isnt in the way.

 

[Oginme]

I have been leaving the lid on during Hop stands at Flame out. I also remove the hop spider, and all the previous additions. I use beer smith to measure my IBU's. When making my recipe I get everything dialed in in terms of IBU's - including the measurement for the hop stand, then I over-shoot the hop stand IBU's by about 15 using the "time of steeping" setting in beer smith. From my experience, beer smith over-shoots the IBU's of a hop stand. I feel like I am pretty close to my targets using that method.

You can make an adjustment in the impact of the whirlpool/steeped hop IBU utilization to avoid having to overbuild the IBU to get the impact you expect.

Click 'options' >> 'bitterness' > 'Steep/Whirlpool util factor'. The default for BeerSmith is 50%. Currently, I have mine set at 30% and that seems to be close to the impact on perceived IBU I get from whirlpool/steeped hop additions.

 

[Kealia]

I'll just add my experience here as well.

Ever since reading that same BYO article that was linked to earlier, I've used 170 for my hopstands.
My process:
- Flameout and chill with IC to 170
- Add hops, stir briefly
- Cover with lid and let hopstand go for 30 minutes
- Remove lid, continue chilling to pitch temp

I get lots of flavor and aroma with minor additions in bitterness (I think anyway).
No DMS.

YMMV but this has worked wonderfully for me.
And, in my experience, the hop flavor and aromas seem to last longer when I use a hopstand versus a traditional flavor addition + dry hop. I'm not sure if the oils/compounds are more stable at that temp or what, but I found a bottle of IPL in the back of my fridge from months and months prior that used a hopstand and I would have sworn that it was a fresh IPA bottle (based on how strong the flavor and aroma was).

 

[radwizard]

You can make an adjustment in the impact of the whirlpool/steeped hop IBU utilization to avoid having to overbuild the IBU to get the impact you expect.

Click 'options' >> 'bitterness' > 'Steep/Whirlpool util factor'. The default for BeerSmith is 50%. Currently, I have mine set at 30% and that seems to be close to the impact on perceived IBU I get from whirlpool/steeped hop additions.

Thanks man. That'll really help me out a lot. I've really trying to improve on hitting specific targets, and maintaining consistancy.