Hops that AREN'T good as late additions?

[hogg44]

Over the past couple years, I have been making single-hop pale ales to learn hop flavors. To try and get as much hop flavor and aroma as possible, I used a hop schedule with a smallish FWH bittering addition and then the rest of the hops at 5 min, 10-20 minute hop stand, and dry hop.

When I did this with Chinook, Kent Goldings, Nugget, Citra, and Columbus, I was happy with the results. The beer was decent and I got a good idea of the flavor. However, I did this with Centennial and Palisade, and got a really strange, almost soapy taste (it's a unique flavor that I have a hard time describing).

I re-brewed the Centennial ale but moved the 5 min. and flameout additions to 20 minutes and the beer turned out really tasty, similar to Bell's Two-Hearted. No weird flavor.

Have you experienced any hops that don't work well as late or flameout additions? Or why this might be happening?

 

[GiantDad]

Happened to me before with an IPA I brewed. How long did you leave it on the primary yeast cake?

 

[Yooper]

I think it must be people's taste. For example, I hate nugget for anything other than bittering because I find its flavor unpleasant, but I love centennial at flame out and or dryhopping, and any time in the boil.

It's possible that some hops can be oxidized, and that could be why they are unpleasant at the end of the boil, but it's not likely if you love nugget and I hate it. That seems like personal taste.

 

[hogg44]

Happened to me before with an IPA I brewed. How long did you leave it on the primary yeast cake?

My typical schedule is about 10 days. About 5 days at 66 F then about 5 at 74 followed by a cold crash.

 

[hogg44]

I think it must be people's taste. For example, I hate nugget for anything other than bittering because I find its flavor unpleasant, but I love centennial at flame out and or dryhopping, and any time in the boil.

It's possible that some hops can be oxidized, and that could be why they are unpleasant at the end of the boil, but it's not likely if you love nugget and I hate it. That seems like personal taste.

I wouldn't say I loved the Nugget, just that it didn't taste "weird" like the Centennial and Palisade do. But you're right, it very well just could be personal preference.

 

[hogg44]

After a little more research, it seems that there a few others experiencing a soapy flavor from Centennial (https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/help-diagnose-my-soapy-flavor.309418/ ,
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/chalkiness-and-soap-in-ipas.335579/ )

Also, both Centennial and Palisade are supposed to have some floral characteristics. I'm wondering if there are some oils in them that give the floral flavors that are unpleasant to me but are getting boiled off when I use them earlier in the boil.

 

[hogg44]

Was just told in another forum that Summit is another hop that may not be good as a late addition.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I was not a fan of late- and dry-hopping with Ahtanum hops. They seemed to give the beers I made with them a sour or tart taste and aroma. I used them on two separate beers so I'm pretty sure it was them and not some other variable.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

After a little more research, it seems that there a few others experiencing a soapy flavor from Centennial

It's an interesting one, I don't think anyone has proved it definitively in relation to hops but I would guess that it's tied up with the fact that ~10% of the population taste cilantro/coriander as soapy. The logic is that some of the main flavour compounds in both coriander and soap are things like linalool, which is a (citrusy) biotransformation product of geraniol (floral), which is present in high levels in certain hop varieties - like Centennial and Bravo (see eg this paper). Tasting soap from these things seems to be determined in part by genetics - Google the gene OR6A2, but there seems to be other genes involved affecting bitterness perception among other things.

Interesting that you get it with Palisade, there's nothing in its headline numbers that particularly stands out, in the way that eg geraniol does for Centennial. Nugget is very high in linalool but very low in geraniol, so it's an interesting one for picking apart the components of the pathway. I'm slightly surprised that you were OK with Citra, as that's one that's got quite a lot of these compounds, ditto Mosaic.

Just generally, it's notable that perhaps the "worst" varieties for this are things like Centennial, Bravo and Ahtanum which are perhaps too one-dimensional to work as single hops, but can be really good "wingmen" in a blend. But yes, forget Summit, it's notorious for an onion/garlic taste, which may be partly tied up with hot-side aeration.

So I would make the prediction that if you made a SMaSH that was heavy on Bravo (hey, it's cheap, go for it!) as late-copper and whirlpool additions, you would taste it as soapy, but 90% of your friends would not, and possibly rather less than 90% of your blood relatives would not.

 

[Yooper]

Was just told in another forum that Summit is another hop that may not be good as a late addition.

I think just the opposite- as a bittering hop it can get very onion-y. Like French onion soup onion-y. But as late additions, it can give off lovely tangerine notes.

 

[hogg44]

Others have also added:
Dry-hopping w/ Saaz
Olicana? (I haven't heard of this one)
Jarrylo
Belma
Magnum
Mosaic (don't shoot the messenger)
Hallertau
Chinook
Pride of Ringwood
Ahtanum

 

[hogg44]

It's an interesting one, I don't think anyone has proved it definitively in relation to hops but I would guess that it's tied up with the fact that ~10% of the population taste cilantro/coriander as soapy. The logic is that some of the main flavour compounds in both coriander and soap are things like linalool, which is a (citrusy) biotransformation product of geraniol (floral), which is present in high levels in certain hop varieties - like Centennial and Bravo (see eg this paper). Tasting soap from these things seems to be determined in part by genetics - Google the gene OR6A2, but there seems to be other genes involved affecting bitterness perception among other things.

Interesting that you get it with Palisade, there's nothing in its headline numbers that particularly stands out, in the way that eg geraniol does for Centennial. Nugget is very high in linalool but very low in geraniol, so it's an interesting one for picking apart the components of the pathway. I'm slightly surprised that you were OK with Citra, as that's one that's got quite a lot of these compounds, ditto Mosaic.

Just generally, it's notable that perhaps the "worst" varieties for this are things like Centennial, Bravo and Ahtanum which are perhaps too one-dimensional to work as single hops, but can be really good "wingmen" in a blend. But yes, forget Summit, it's notorious for an onion/garlic taste, which may be partly tied up with hot-side aeration.

So I would make the prediction that if you made a SMaSH that was heavy on Bravo (hey, it's cheap, go for it!) as late-copper and whirlpool additions, you would taste it as soapy, but 90% of your friends would not, and possibly rather less than 90% of your blood relatives would not.

Thanks for that in-depth reply. It's really interesting what you mentioned about Citra and Mosaic. I don't think those have a "weird" taste, but I'm not a huge fan of them. I looked at Scott Janish's hop replacement calculator and sure enough, three of the top 5 with comparable oil contents are Centennial, Bravo, and Mosaic. Bravo was actually on my list to make a single-hop beer with because it's so cheap. Even though you suggest I might not like it, I'm going to try it out in the future to find out if I get the same flavor.

So if I find the same flavor with Bravo, you think I should stay away from high levels of geraniol? Am I reading that correctly?

I liked the beer I made with Centennial added at 20 minutes, but not at 5. So maybe some/most of the geraniol is getting boiled off and the resulting flavor is more appealing to me.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Olicana is one of the new British hops from Farams - see http://www.charlesfaram.co.uk/hop-varieties/olicana/ It's still pretty rare even in the UK, you'll very occasionally see it on a bar as a single-hop special.

Bravo was actually on my list to make a single-hop beer with because it's so cheap. Even though you suggest I might not like it, I'm going to try it out in the future to find out if I get the same flavor.

A quick-and-dirty way to get some idea is just to dry-hop a bottle of a fairly neutral beer, even commercial beer like B*d - chill it, pop the cap, put 2-3 pellets in, recap it and drink a few days later. Or rather than do a full batch of Bravo, do a simple beer - say 10lb pale malt and 25IBU (or even do it with extract), pitch the yeast and mix, then split into gallon batches and dry-hop (immediately) with eg Bravo, Nugget, Centennial and something you like.

So if I find the same flavor with Bravo, you think I should stay away from high levels of geraniol? Am I reading that correctly?

I liked the beer I made with Centennial added at 20 minutes, but not at 5. So maybe some/most of the geraniol is getting boiled off and the resulting flavor is more appealing to me.

At this stage all we can say is that you're tasting something that is associated with high geraniol, but the fact that you get it from Palisade and don't particularly get it from Citra and Mosaic suggests that it's not geraniol itself. The genetic data suggests that it's probably not geraniol either, but probably an oxidation product (which might also be a biotransformation product). And there might be all sorts of weird interactions going on, there often are with these things.

That's why I think Nugget could be interesting, just because it has almost no geraniol, but lots of one of the downstream terpenols. Also, how are you on cilantro?

 

[hogg44]

That's why I think Nugget could be interesting, just because it has almost no geraniol, but lots of one of the downstream terpenols. Also, how are you on cilantro?

I like cilantro. Nothing in my Centennial beer reminds me of the same flavors. Wondering now if it's just old or a bad batch of hops. I'll have to pick up some fresh Centennial and try again and see what happens.

Thanks for the tip on the split dry-hop idea. I love ideas like that.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I like cilantro.

I'm so disappointed to hear that! Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with this whole taste mutation thing, but it just feels so plausible....

Nothing in my Centennial beer reminds me of the same flavors. Wondering now if it's just old or a bad batch of hops. I'll have to pick up some fresh Centennial and try again and see what happens.

Thanks for the tip on the split dry-hop idea. I love ideas like that.

If you do it as a no-chill then you can even get a bit of kettle-hop character, I'm all for adapting recipes to allow processing as a single batch as far as I can and then splitting it to test something specific. I hardly ever ferment a single batch as 5 gallons these days, I'm always testing dry hop regimes or new yeast or whatever, it's the only way to learn.

It could be you had a bad batch of Centennial but the way that a minority of people keep bringing up the soapy thing, just feels like it's more complicated than that, soap isn't typical of dead hops.