Hops Good Beer

[HermeticHealer]

Hello Forum:

This is an invitation to opposing view points.

First off, let me state that I love hops in moderation. Contrary to popular belief, any criticism towards hops and hop usage does NOT therefore deem the critic as a "hop wimp" or someone who doesn't truly appreciate the flavor of hops. This just simply isn't true.

That being said, has anyone else witnessed the increasing trend in poorly crafted beers that have been disguised with massive amounts of hops? It almost seems like a cop-out. Instead of crafting a well-balanced beer, breweries just pack a brew with tons of hops and expect people to clamor over it. And people do! There is a sense of machismo that seems to exist towards how many IBU a beer-drinker can stomach. As if a large tolerance for hops makes a person a true aficionado.

I was once fortunate enough to experience a craft brew at the Schlafly Brewery in St. Louis. Its IBU was roughly 70. To say the least, it was an extremely hopped brew BUT, it was delicious because it was well-balanced. The hops weren't used to disguise crappy malt, corn sugar additives, or other poor brewing practices.

Does anyone else feel that there are too many self-proclaimed enthusiasts that worship any beer that is packed with hops, regardless of how well the beer actually tastes?

In my opinion, bitter does not necessarily equal better!

 

[bovineblitz]

I like beers with outrageous hop flavor. So do many people. Hence, many breweries are making them.

Would you care to give a couple examples of these "so out of balance they're bad" beers?

 

[lowtones84]

I agree to some extent. There is a local brewery that I taste the same flaws in most of their beers. The only way they can brew something decent is if it's "Imperial", heavily hopped, or both. Unfortunately people love it because of the IPA craze. Their IPA's are just okay, not great.

However, there can be very hoppy beers that are well crafted. Balance isn't the only way to craft a beer well either. There are plenty of American IPAs that I consider well crafted although the hops are way more forward than the malt. That's kind of what makes the style. Basically yeah, some mediocre brewers/breweries hide behind lots of hops, but there are plenty who don't use hops as a crutch.

 

[Mongrel]

I was once fortunate enough to experience a craft brew at the Schlafly Brewery in St. Louis. Its IBU was roughly 70. To say the least, it was an extremely hopped brew BUT, it was delicious because it was well-balanced. The hops weren't used to disguise crappy malt, corn sugar additives, or other poor brewing practices.

Corn sugar is a very useful adjunct in multiple beer styles, including the highly hopped IIPA.

 

[r2eng]

There are so many styles, so many breweries that do not hold to those styles, so many people with different tastes, etc.

Buy what YOU like, don't look for someone to tell you what is good or that you are right or wrong in your beer tastes. Good is what you like.

For example, I despise New Belgium beers. Does that mean they suck and no one should drink beer from that brewery? No! I don't like their beers.

 

[HermeticHealer]

50% of all Hinterland Brewery beers come to mind. This is a very regional beer, so perhaps not recognizable. Another that comes to mind is Hop Devil by Victory. I know this is probably sacrilege for most of you, but I just don't think it rounds out a full flavor profile.

 

[HermeticHealer]

I would agree with you. There are many tasty beers with a predominant hop flavor which are out-of-this-world incredible (like the Schlafly APA I mentioned). I just think too many beers are adored because of their IBU, not for how they actually taste.

 

[Mongrel]

I would agree with you. There are many tasty beers with a predominant hop flavor which are out-of-this-world incredible (like the Schlafly APA I mentioned). I just think too many beers are adored because of their IBU, not for how they actually taste.

If this was at all true, a lot of breweries would be putting out beers using only a single bittering addition, but that's not the case.

 

[phenry]

I like to throw tons of hops at my IPAs... does that mean my brewing techniques suck and I'm just doing so to compensate for an otherwise bad beer?

 

[Xpertskir]

I was going to draft a long and thoughtful response about the use of hops but instead I'll just say
"I remember my first IPA"

 

[bb239605]

I thought founders devil dancer was not good.

 

[libeerty]

You've now named a couple examples, but to make such a grandiose claim about the entire industry, many more examples are needed.

Also, if the hops are masking the flaws, how do you know the flaws are there? If you're saying you can still taste the flaws, then how do you know the hops are there to hide them if they are unable to do so for you? Are they hiding them from other people, just not you?

Like was said, seems to be that it is simply supply following demand.

 

[swackattack]

I originally hated this post..but upon some more thinking there maybe a grain of truth here. I think at this point i brew some pretty good beer. I'm a hophead and while most of my beers are good, it tends to be the ones that people and myself seem to think are the best are my ipas. It begs the question....Are my IPAs the best because of I've spent the most time tinkering with the recipes and understand hop profiles better now or just because the hops may mask an off flavor. My guess is the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[PhelanKA7]

Three Floyds' "Arctic Panzer Wolf" disagrees with this thread.

 

[SPR-GRN]

I don't know if I should comment here, I'm not the biggest fan of IPA's, especially not IIPA's, but last spring/summer I decided to give IPA's a try again, grabbed a bunch of offerings from many producers, Magic hats offerings last year were my least favorite of everything I grabbed, I'm just not an IPA guy and I drank a lot of IPA's last summer.
I think the turning point for me was when I volunteered on the bottling line at Thomas Hooker beer, that day there were bottling an IPA and I was told I could drink any tallies or shorties because they couldn't sell them. At first I was happy, sweet free beer and plenty of it, but then we pretty much had ot chug them to keep up with the beginning mistakes (older bottling line so getting the fill right took some time) not to mention any that came out without labels, or multiple labels or other issues with the bottling line.. I drank so much IPA that day I haven't really had a taste for it since... back on topic, I think it's just a market trend right now in the micro/brew pub area - half of the beers at the brewpubs I go to are IPA's and these brewpubs have between 4 and eight of their own beers on tap. talk about lack of variety, but apparently its selling; you will get good IPA's and bad IPA's and everything in between. Now wehn BMC puts out an IPA, thats when I'll agree with your statement

 

[JonM]

50% of all Hinterland Brewery beers come to mind. This is a very regional beer, so perhaps not recognizable. Another that comes to mind is Hop Devil by Victory. I know this is probably sacrilege for most of you, but I just don't think it rounds out a full flavor profile.

??????? Hinterland is a gastropub. Their beers are meant to be paired with the spectacular food they serve there. Have you tried the recommended pairings?

EDIT: For the non-Wisconsin folks, Hinterland is a restaurant with two locations - one in Green Bay and one in Milwaukee. They specialize in fresh, local ingredients and lots of game. The menu changes frequently based on what is in season. Everything is expertly prepared and presented. Last time I was there, elk tenderloin and quinoa happened to be available and it was incredible. This ain't some corner bar.

 

[two_hearted]

I think freshness is everything with IPAs. I've had a lot of bad experiences with commercial beers. IPAs sit on the shelf for a while here in Ohio and I would say 60% of the beers I buy are skunked or oxidized or just old. I used to hate Stone IPA because every time I bought a 6 pack it was old. I had it fresh on tap a few times and my mind was blown. Similar thing with Founders Centennial IPA. I thought that beer was just...ok. Then I had a few pints at the brewery and holy crap was that good. Apparently I have a thing for centennial hops!

Anyways, there are lots of different styles of beer to suit the tastes of different people. No one's forcing anyone to love IPAs, but there are a ton of us who do. See you all at next month's "Am I the only one who hates hops?" thread.

 

[stratslinger]

The hops weren't used to disguise crappy malt, corn sugar additives, or other poor brewing practices.

I know someone has already commented on this, but I also have to chime in, because this comment just jumped out at me:

Speaking of corn sugar additives as a "poor brewing practice" shows that you might not have the best grasp of brewing practices. There are many styles where sugar additives, corn or otherwise, have a long history and are in fact very much vital part of brewing. Things like the aforementioned IIPA style, Barleywine, and just about anything Belgian - they all call for pretty hefty grain bills PLUS sugars like corn sugar to help dry them a little and keep them from becoming too syrupy or cloying, and to help other flavor components in the beer - whether those are the yeast, the hops, or other malt components - to come to the forefront.

Make sure, before you start attacking "poor brewing practices," that you really understand what do and do not comprise said practices.

 

[BigRedHopHead]

Hello Forum: There is a sense of machismo that seems to exist towards how many IBU a beer-drinker can stomach. As if a large tolerance for hops makes a person a true aficionado.

This is true in a sense. But it is no different than hot sauces. In the beginning I couldn't stand much more heat than a jalapeño based sauce. These days I am growing scorpion and ghost chiles in my garden in the summer because I have learned to appreciate and enjoy their flavor and painfully intense heat.
For me hops followed a very similar path, and a Lupin shift occurred whereby whimpy hopped beers didn't taste the same. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy a good lager or Belgian. I really enjoy all beer except sours (haven't found a taste for those yet).

Most of the craft brew IPA's and DIPA's I drink these days are very good. So I disagree with your assertion. I would say 9 in 10 are good to very good for my taste, and I am a discerning hop head (or should I say "aficionado")

 

[HermeticHealer]

I like to throw tons of hops at my IPAs... does that mean my brewing techniques suck and I'm just doing so to compensate for an otherwise bad beer?

I don't know, you tell me.

Like I said, I have nothing against a well-hopped beer. I'm just saying that just because a beer is packed with hops, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. See: Sacred Cow

sa·cred cow
Noun
An idea, custom, or institution held, esp. unreasonably, to be above criticism.

 

[two_hearted]

Is anyone saying that all hoppy beers are inherently good?

 

[phenry]

I don't know, you tell me.

Like I said, I have nothing against a well-hopped beer. I'm just saying that just because a beer is packed with hops, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. See: Sacred Cow

sa·cred cow
Noun
An idea, custom, or institution held, esp. unreasonably, to be above criticism.

A bad beer is a bad beer, regardless of any ability hops have to "hide" flaws. Have all of my IPAs been great? Of course not. My failures in that particular style have been just as glaring as any other. Maybe I'm just more critical of my own beer than others are of theirs, but successfully displaying hops at the forefront of a beer really isn't as brainless as some let it on to be. I rarely buy IPAs for this reason alone, because part of the trouble of making an IPA is delivering it fresh.

And while I agree that an IPA doesn't need 15 lbs of hops per barrel to be good, such is the mentality of a majority (or at least very vocal segment) of the craft beer crowd "bigger is better," regardless of style. Who can really blame craft brewers for satisfying that share of the market?

 

[pabloj13]

Is anyone saying that all hoppy beers are inherently good?

Yeah, I seemed to have missed this as well. And any time I have seen comments like "hop wimp" it's normally just good-natured ribbing. There are many people that don't like IPAs or any other hoppy beer. Who cares? Drink what you like. I also don't get upset if people put ice in their white wine or drink white zinfandel.

 

[Jayhem]

Pliny dislikes this thread.



I think there is some truth here.

It can't be argued that hops would hide some poor malt quality, brewing practices and off-flavors. BUT...I do not believe that breweries intentionally make a low quality beer and highly hop it and call it an IPA. This is still a well through out craft style that has infinite possibilities due to the sheer variety of hops available. This style has a huge following because a lot of craft beer drinkers simply enjoy the bitterness, aroma and flavor of hops.

I think that bitterness has an addicting propery. Just like hot sauce and hot, spicy foods are addicting, even if they sometimes cause us physical pain as we enjoy them...we STILL EAT THEM! IPA's are addictive to me in the same way...can't get enough of that hop hit!

 

[Brewtah]

There is a definate bragging rights quality to heavily hopped beer. How many times do you read and hear, "my IIPA has 10 billion IBU's".
Do brewers feel like they are warning you or bragging about the hoppiness of their beer.
You definately build up a tolerance with different tastes.

 

[Horseballs]

I would also like to add that bitterness ≠ hoppiness. I know too many people who think that because you throw 5 oz of bittering hops into something it is a super hoppy beer while it only has two or three oz in the late kettle and dry hop. That's not hoppiness, that's bitterness.

 

[Yooper]

There are so many styles, so many breweries that do not hold to those styles, so many people with different tastes, etc.

Buy what YOU like, don't look for someone to tell you what is good or that you are right or wrong in your beer tastes. Good is what you like.

For example, I despise New Belgium beers. Does that mean they suck and no one should drink beer from that brewery? No! I don't like their beers.

I would agree with you. There are many tasty beers with a predominant hop flavor which are out-of-this-world incredible (like the Schlafly APA I mentioned). I just think too many beers are adored because of their IBU, not for how they actually taste.

Well, why would I drink a beer "because of their IBU, not for how they actually taste"? That doesn't make any sense. I'll drink bad beers, if they're hoppy? That's silly.

I've had bad beers of ALL types at breweries and at brewpubs. I've had terrible wheats- fermented too hot so it tasted like a band-aid. That doesn't mean that all wheat beers are bad, though.

I've had poorly crafted lagers, too. But I've also had some excellent ones.

Bad beer is bad beer, no matter what.

Saying that people who love IBUs are easily pacified by just throwing more hops into a bad beer is rather insulting, as you're insinuating that my palate is so bad that I can't taste the beer anyway.

 

[BigRedHopHead]

Saying that people who love IBUs are easily pacified by just throwing more hops into a bad beer is rather insulting, as you're insinuating that my palate is so bad that I can't taste the beer anyway.

+1 to this!

 

[MidTNJasonF]

I have never consumed an IPA, APA, IIPA, IBA, or other hoppy beer variant and said that is to much hop flavor. I have frequently consumed one and said it needed more hop flavor, hop aroma, or hop "character". As someone else said Hop Character does not equal bitterness, there are simply to many compounds and flavors that can come from hops to shoehorn them in to the small box of bitterness.

I disagree with your entire premise. Sure there is a tend for higher hop loads and bigger IBU beers. People are demanding them and that is what sells. That does not mean those increases are in effort to cover a poorly crafted beer. I have experienced the opposite actually, many breweries are creating more balanced beers as the hop levels/IBU increase because the style and the consumers demand it. In my experience hop flavor and IBU does little to mask a poorly crafted beer at least it does far less than crazy amounts of roasted or dark grains, flavor additives, and fruit additives. An IPA with big IBU levels but no mouth feel or body is far easier to spot than a poorly brewed Chocolate Hazelnut Imperial Porter or some other such nonsense.

 

[ArtVandelay]

IPA's aren't suppose to be balanced. And how is "balanced" equal to good? Malt forward beers aren't balanced either.