Hoppy Dunkelweizen - Good or bad idea?

[TxBigHops]

I'm brewing a beer with a friend next weekend. I had planned on a hoppy brew, as I'm running low, but he didn't like my original suggestion, and we ended up settling on a dunkel. So I got to thinking, what about a hoppy dunkel? Figured I would come here and get some opinions.

I know that 3 Floyds Gumballhead is a very popular hoppy wheat beer. So what if I took the hopping schedule for that clone (several are on here) and used a darker dunkel grain bill? Good or bad idea?

One other issue is the hops. I know that Amarillo can be hard to find, and expensive. What are some appropriate alternatives in this type of recipe. Heavier than normal use of German hops? Bitter with Magnum and finish with Hallertau, or go with alternative NW hops like Centennial or Cascade?

Here is a quick recipe I threw together:

Title: Frankenweizen
Author: TxBigHops

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.75 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.064
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 6.43%
IBU (tinseth): 32.86
SRM (morey): 14.37

FERMENTABLES:
6 lb - American - Red Wheat (45.3%)
4 lb - German - Munich Dark (30.2%)
2 lb - German - Vienna (15.1%)
1.25 lb - German - CaraMunich III (9.4%)

HOPS:
0.25 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: First Wort, IBU: 4.33
0.25 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 7.15
0.5 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 11
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 10.38
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 175 °F
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 54 - 77 F
Fermentation Temp: 62 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)


Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2016-01-23 16:21 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2016-01-23 16:21 UTC

 

[brewcat]

Could be interesting. It won't be a dunkel. I wouldn't use Amarillo. I'd keep the hops more traditional. So, Magnum to bitter. Then Hallertauer to flavor. You could substitute Mt. Hood for the Hallertauer.

Maybe change your yeast to a wheat strain.

 

[chickypad]

Depends what you want. I wouldn't call this a Dunkelweizen without a Germen hefeweizen yeast, though personally I see that as a good thing as I think it would clash with the hops. I like the idea of using the grainbill and making it into a dark hoppy American style wheat though. If that's what you're after, along the lines of a dark Gumballhead, then I'd go with the finishing hops like centennial and cascade. I'd probably also drop the caramunich to a half lb or less.

 

[TxBigHops]

Yes, I understand it's not a traditional Dunkel. As I see it, I can go one of two directions. Increase the German hops, in which case I would use a German yeast, probably 3068. My issue with this is I don't have any idea what this will taste like. I'm not aware of any commercial examples. Maybe there's a good reason for that.

The second option, my preference, is to go for a darker, more Dunkel like Gumballhead. Thus the Pacific US hops and the English yeast. I'm just trying to determine if the darker grain bill will clash with the hops.

 

[chickypad]

I'm also not sure how the first option would be, though as I mentioned I do think that yeast would clash with big American hops. I don't think you have to worry too much about the dark grainbill. There are lots of examples of malty and/or dark IPA's that are popular these days. I had a dark hoppy American wheat one time at a brewpub and I remember thinking it was good and I should try to brew one, but I can't remember where that was. I'll have to check my untappd log. I do think you might want to follow general IPA techniques like mashing low, making sure it attenuates well so it's not too sweet (hence my comment on reducing the cara malt).

 

[TxBigHops]

I'm also not sure how the first option would be, though as I mentioned I do think that yeast would clash with big American hops. I don't think you have to worry too much about the dark grainbill. There are lots of examples of malty and/or dark IPA's that are popular these days. I had a dark hoppy American wheat one time at a brewpub and I remember thinking it was good and I should try to brew one, but I can't remember where that was. I'll have to check my untappd log. I do think you might want to follow general IPA techniques like mashing low, making sure it attenuates well so it's not too sweet (hence my comment on reducing the cara malt).

What if I swapped Caravienne for the Caramalt? Could I use more of that? I see most of the Gumballhead clones use it. Problem is then the color is not as dark as I'm looking for. I've got to be able to convince my brew buddy that we're making a "dunkel". Could I add another dark malt to get some color without overdoing the caramel/crystal?

 

[chickypad]

It's kind of 6 of one half dozen of the other - still caramel malt just lighter. If you mash low and bitter well enough it may be fine, I just don't like that much caramel malt in my IPA-like styles. You can certainly add an oz or two of some type of debittered black malt for color - that's a pretty common technique. I like midnight wheat myself, but any of the carafa specials would do as well.

 

[TxBigHops]

It's kind of 6 of one half dozen of the other - still caramel malt just lighter. If you mash low and bitter well enough it may be fine, I just don't like that much caramel malt in my IPA-like styles. You can certainly add an oz or two of some type of debittered black malt for color - that's a pretty common technique. I like midnight wheat myself, but any of the carafa specials would do as well.

Bingo. Dehusked carafa special is exactly what I was thinking. So here's the latest. I dropped the mash temp down a bit. I don't think I'm uncomfortable with 7.5% caramel/crystal. And I swapped the hops to what I currently have on hand.

Title: Frankenweizen
Author: TxBigHops

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Dunkles Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.75 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.064
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 6.52%
IBU (tinseth): 36.33
SRM (morey): 17.57

FERMENTABLES:
6 lb - American - Red Wheat (45.3%)
4 lb - German - Munich Dark (30.2%)
2 lb - German - Vienna (15.1%)
1 lb - Belgian - CaraVienne (7.5%)
0.25 lb - German - De-husked Carafa II (1.9%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: First Wort, IBU: 9.07
0.25 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 7.49
0.25 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.9, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 4.41
0.25 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 5.76
0.5 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.9, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 4.16
0.5 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 5.43
0.75 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.9, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 175 °F
0.5 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 175 °F
0.5 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
0.5 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.9, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temp: 149 F, Time: 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 54 - 77 F
Fermentation Temp: 62 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

 

[chickypad]

Be sure to report back!

 

[TxBigHops]

Be sure to report back!

Brewed on Saturday. When I bought my grains, LHBS guy made same recommendation as you - 6 oz Midnight wheat instead of 8 oz dehusked Carafa II. And he had both, so it had nothing to do with the sale. So I went with the wheat. All is bubbling away nicely, so I'll let you know what it tastes like in about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks.

 

[yono1986]

German wheat beers, like Belgian beers, are all about the yeast. So, the question that you have to ask yourself when making any of those beers is how your ingredients will complement what the yeast is doing. I don't see amarillo being good with a hefe yeast, so I don't see this going anywhere. Essentially, you're making an English brown wheat IPA, not a dunkelweizen. That doesn't mean you shouldn't give this a go, just don't pretend it's a dunkelweizen.

 

[TxBigHops]

German wheat beers, like Belgian beers, are all about the yeast. So, the question that you have to ask yourself when making any of those beers is how your ingredients will complement what the yeast is doing. I don't see amarillo being good with a hefe yeast, so I don't see this going anywhere. Essentially, you're making an English brown wheat IPA, not a dunkelweizen. That doesn't mean you shouldn't give this a go, just don't pretend it's a dunkelweizen.

Sorry, the recipe in post 1 is not what I brewed. That was just thrown out to begin the discussion. And I fully acknowledge that I'm not brewing a beer that fits neatly into any style. I'm happy to receive your input, but please read the entire thread so you can see the development of the recipe and the current iteration.