Hop stand

[gometz]

42000 lb of water can hold a LOT of heat, plus the minimal surface area and they likely use insulated kettles. They probably don't even drop more than 1-2 degrees.

 

[pharaohpierre]

I have read this whole thread, interesting stuff. Definitely going to try. My question is, while doing a hop stand, should I put pellet hops is a bag or just let it loose and collect it with a whirlpool? Or it doesn't matter either way?

 

[wyobrewer1]

I have read this whole thread, interesting stuff. Definitely going to try. My question is, while doing a hop stand, should I put pellet hops is a bag or just let it loose and collect it with a whirlpool? Or it doesn't matter either way?

Seems to be purely personal preference. Before I had a strainer when pouring wort from the kettle to fermentor I would use a bag. Now that I have a strainer I just throw them all in.

 

[pharaohpierre]

yeah, I like the sound of throwing them all in and letting them move around freely. thanks for the reply

 

[ahurd110]

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

 

[tgmartin000]

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

 

[ahurd110]

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

I didn't, but I should. I'm guessing about 30 ibus at the most for about 60-70 all day. I'll go back and do the math and see what it is.

 

[jsguitar]

I'm sorry if I missed this but I'm tired and trying to throw a brew together for tomorrow.

How do you guys account for bitterness with hopstands in Beersmith? It seems to make the calculating kind of tricky.

 

[NathPowe]

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

This is going to be awesome. Well played.

I'm sorry if I missed this but I'm tired and trying to throw a brew together for tomorrow.

How do you guys account for bitterness with hopstands in Beersmith? It seems to make the calculating kind of tricky.

I generally do a 15-20min whirlpool/hopstand for IPA's and other hop-centric beers and I add 3min to every addition (60=63, Flameout=3) in Beersmith (Tinseth). I came up with this by starting with info from a few different threads on this site, and then combining that with continued brewing on my system. It makes beer that I like drinking. I say this because, to me at least, it seems like there's no wrong way to account for it in Beersmith - you just need to be consistent/pay attention/take good records so you know what values in Beersmith translate to the flavors you enjoy.

Just my two cents.

 

[jsguitar]

I generally do a 15-20min whirlpool/hopstand for IPA's and other hop-centric beers and I add 3min to every addition (60=63, Flameout=3) in Beersmith (Tinseth). I came up with this by starting with info from a few different threads on this site, and then combining that with continued brewing on my system. It makes beer that I like drinking. I say this because, to me at least, it seems like there's no wrong way to account for it in Beersmith - you just need to be consistent/pay attention/take good records so you know what values in Beersmith translate to the flavors you enjoy.

Just my two cents.

Awesome reply, thanks!

I had just plugged in 5 minutes, so I was thinking in the right direction.

I think I'll do something similar to the poster you quoted above. Just wanted make sure I didn't undershoot my bitterness by too much.

 

[NathPowe]

No problem man. Hope the beer comes out great. I just mashed in for a pale ale I'm doing with Nelson Sauvin and Pacific Jade. Pretty stoked for it - definitely rocking the whirlpool/hopstand hops for this one.

Enjoy the brew.

 

[ahurd110]

That sounds tasty. Did you calculate what ibu you'll get from the knockout addition? I've done plenty of hop stands but never a bittering and knockout addition like that.

Looks like it adds up to 26 ibus from the steep. I'm curious to see how the bitterness comes across in comparison to the calculated value.

 

[ahurd110]

Just pulled a hydro sample after 2 weeks. Dropped to 1.013. Hop profile was pretty well in line with beers I've done using the same hops in the boil as opposed to flameout only. Aroma may have been a touch stronger, but nothing that blew me away or seemed out of the ordinary.

Bitterness was pretty low, but its hard to really peg when its flat. I just added 3oz of dry hops and will rack and carb later this week. Will post a full review when the beer is in its prime.

 

[Malty_Dog]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

 

[WesleyS]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

Even with a hop stand I still just put my IC in with 15 min left in the boil and it stays in the whole time I do the hop stand. When the hop stand is over, I turn the water on and chill as I normally would.

 

[BassBeer]

That's what I do as well, no problems

 

[NathPowe]

even with a hop stand i still just put my ic in with 15 min left in the boil and it stays in the whole time i do the hop stand. When the hop stand is over, i turn the water on and chill as i normally would.

+2

 

[VonAle]

Question on chilling after a whirlpool/hopstand: How are you guys sanitizing your wort chillers? Normally I'd put it in the BK with 10 min or so left in the boil but since I did a whirlpool/hopstand I did a Starsan soak for a few minutes. I thought I remembered reading that StarSan soaks + copper wort chiller = not good.

I put mine in a tub of Idophor solution. This way i can cover the pot during the hopstand.

 

[VonAle]

The temperature has two important implications (as far as I've concluded)

1) Above 180, you're going to isomerize compounds and add bitterness. Not as much as higher temps, but you will.

2) Higher temperatures extract heavier molecules. Any coffee or tea aficionados experience this all the time. I hate coffee or tea made with boiling water. If you look on packages of loose leaf tea, they actually suggest using water between 180 and 195 degrees (I live in CO so this ends up being my boiling temp anyways!).

"Heavier" molecules tend to be earthy, bitter, tangy (hay flavors as well) and bitter in tea. While "lighter" molecules are more floral, fruity, and only slightly grassy. Extrapolating this to hops, I think, is possible. I've noticed that Amarillo, Citra and NS really came through in a SMaSH steep, but my Apollo and Simcoe did not. I'm not saying the Apollo and Simcoe tasted like nothing, but they were much smoother than normal. The Apollo was delicious, which is not anything I've heard someone say and the Simcoe was a remarkably smooth shadow of its normal self. I applied the simcoe steep to a heavy American strong ale and the results were the same.

Just my extra long two cents

^^ I find this to be very interesting.

I've been cooling to 150 degrees in my swimming pool, then adding 4 oz, whirlpool, cover and rest for 60 min. I wrap in blankets to insulate and don't pull the cover until after the rest and I start to chill. I'm usually at about 140 degrees after 60 min.

With this method, the aroma and flavor is as stated above, floral and fruity. Not the sharp, fresh bitter edgy nose and taste that I want. I've used centennial, simcoe, falconers flight and willamette in hopstands and they all seem to taste the same.

Next time, I'm going to hopstand at 180 and see what happens.

 

[TheHairyHop]

^^ I find this to be very interesting.

I've been cooling to 150 degrees in my swimming pool, then adding 4 oz, whirlpool, cover and rest for 60 min. I wrap in blankets to insulate and don't pull the cover until after the rest and I start to chill. I'm usually at about 140 degrees after 60 min.

With this method, the aroma and flavor is as stated above, floral and fruity. Not the sharp, fresh bitter edgy nose and taste that I want. I've used centennial, simcoe, falconers flight and willamette in hopstands and they all seem to taste the same.

Next time, I'm going to hopstand at 180 and see what happens.

Sounds good. I've always wanted to do more controlled experiments but I'm saving that until I have an automated system. It'll just take a lot of effort to really knock out a decent experiment.

I did two stage stands (180 and 165) for a few of my beers. I wouldn't expect much bitterness from 180 because that's the threshold of isomerization. Make sure you report back!

 

[VonAle]

Sounds good. I've always wanted to do more controlled experiments but I'm saving that until I have an automated system. It'll just take a lot of effort to really knock out a decent experiment.

I did two stage stands (180 and 165) for a few of my beers. I wouldn't expect much bitterness from 180 because that's the threshold of isomerization. Make sure you report back!

I've tried a two stage stand with no noticable difference to one at 150.

I should also mention, My hop schedule is(was) FWH-FO-DH

Next IPA is going to be something like, 60-10-FO-DH
Simply move the FWH to 60 and 10

 

[worthogg]

So the new version of Beersmith lets you input a percentage for bitterness utilization when hops are steeped/whirlpooled. The software says it should be set at 50% for a temperature of 194F. It seems like most people on here are estimating much lower than that. Temps are all over the board. I set my utilization at 20% because I hopstand at 180F (I admit this 20% number was a total guess). What is everyone else setting theirs to?

 

[TheHairyHop]

imo, you're looking more at single digits than 20%. 180 is when utilization is first possible. It's not going to be very efficient. How long does it take to boil water if you set the burner to boiling temp?

 

[worthogg]

imo, you're looking more at single digits than 20%. 180 is when utilization is first possible. It's not going to be very efficient. How long does it take to boil water if you set the burner to boiling temp?

I think I'll set mine to 10% at the risk of overbittering. Once I do my next couple of brews with this number plugged in I should have a pretty good gauge for any bitterness I get from my whirlpool additions. Then adjust accordingly...

 

[ahurd110]

Just brewed a hopstand IPA on Saturday. 45 minute boil with a 40 ibu bittering addition and everything else post flameout.

4 oz of hops right after cutting the flame (mix of nelson, galaxy, amarillo, and simcoe), let sit for about 20 minutes with occasional stirring. No cover.

After 20 min the chiller was turned on and the wort was cooled to 165. Cut chiller, add another dose of hops, same amount and blend above. Let sit for another 20 min, covered, with more frequent stirring. Wort dropped to 145 during this time.

Finished chilling, dropped to pitch temp and threw some s-05 in. OG of 1.068. Fermenting away happily now. Will hit with 3 oz of dryhops after 14 days then rack to keg.

I will update how it turns out, this is my first time trying a beer with no aroma or flavor additions during the boil, and with a sub-60min boil.

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

 

[tgmartin000]

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

THanks for the update. I'm just getting ready to carb a galaxy IPA that used a big addition at knockout and a big addition once the wort hit 150, with a total 1-hour hop stand. Looking forward to it!

 

[TheHairyHop]

So this one has been on tap for a minute, and I have to say the hop stand worked almost too well. 8oz of hops lent post boil lent a ton of flavor--so much so that a lot of undesirable grassy and vegetal flavor came across into the final beer. The hop flavor is also just a strong, generic raw hop-pellet like flavor. It is actually tough to even tell what hops are used, even though nelson in particular should be very distinctive.

The bitterness is also quite strong. It tastes in line with IPAs I've done with 125+calculated ibus.

The hop flavor is also quite one-dimensional. It smacks you hard upfront, then drops with no real complexity or depth.

All in all, I'm a bit disappointed, but this was meant to be an experiment, so no big deal. In the future I will still add at flameout and at 160, but I will be using 5 and 10 min additions as well to get a nice layered flavor.

How fresh were those hops? I've only ever used less than 3 Oz in flameout. I think you might have gone overboard

 

[ddicker60]

Is there an issue with using an immersion chiller and hop standing. I have done a few hop stands and loved it. My dad finally got a chiller for christmas and plan on doing an APA with 3oz FO/Hop stand

 

[TheHairyHop]

Is there an issue with using an immersion chiller and hop standing. I have done a few hop stands and loved it. My dad finally got a chiller for christmas and plan on doing an APA with 3oz FO/Hop stand

Your question is a bit broad. I can answer if you're more specific

 

[ddicker60]

Pretty much can I use a copper chiller while doing a hop stand? I know most people put theirs in the last 15min of the boil and then chill, would there be sanitation issues if it sat in the wort during the hop stand before I start chilling again?