Hop help? - Tropical American IPA

[bsangel37]

Hi everyone, first post so I'll try to make it a good one.

I'm taking a shot at making a Tropical American IPA. It's only my 3rd extract batch and I'm looking for some advice for this recipe I've found and slightly modified. As it stands, the IBU in this American IPA is about 82, which is a bit high for the style.

I was thinking about reducing each of the hops (except the first round of Amarillo) by 5 minutes to bring down the bitterness and hopefully keep more flavor and aroma. At least that's the idea from what I've read and how I understand hop scheduling, I'm still new so I could be totally wrong there.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Fermentables
8lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light


Specialty grains
12 oz CaraRed


Hops (Pellets)

1 oz Amarillo - 30min (8.5AA)
1 oz N1/69** - 20min (13.2AA)
1 oz Galaxy - 15min (14.5AA)
1 oz Amarillo - 10min
1 oz Galaxy - 5min
1 oz N1/69** - 14 day dry hop
1 oz Galaxy - 14 day dry hop

(**From the original, I've replaced Azacca hops with N1/69 South African experimental hops from Northernbrewing, different tropical notes, similar but lower alpha acid.)

 

[derekcw83]

That's a good plan to take those last 2 boil additions and put them in at flameout or even better do a whirpool/steep at 180f. Then you can reduce the others to say 20 min and 15 and get more flavor and aroma from them all. I'd even consider increasing galaxy amounts, it's a really nice tropical hop.

 

[IslandLizard]

Agree with @derekcw83.

I would also push those late 15, 10 and 5 minute additions to a 20-30' whirlpool/hopstand at 180-170F, and push the 30' and 20' additions to 10 and 5. There will be some but not much bittering from that stage. After 30' and 20' boil there wouldn't much of Amarillo's or N1/69's flavor left, and none of the aroma.

I would add a bittering charge with Magnum or some other clean bittering hop to get most of your IBUs.

14 days of dry hopping is too long. No longer than 5-7 days, I'd say (at room temps). Best is to add them right before the fermentation is finished, with a few points (3-5) left to go.

 

[IslandLizard]

Also boil with 1/3 to 1/2 of your malt extract, adding the remainder at flameout. Especially when using LME.

Put the recipe in Beersmith (2 weeks free) or Brewer's Friend (free) to calculate your IBUs a bit more precisely.

Are you doing a full boil or partial boil with top up water? That's an important factor in IPAs.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Since you haven't mentioned yeast, which matters, I'd recommend using WLP644 yeast for even more tropical aroma. This strain by itself gives a good amount of tropical character, and is my go-to IPA strain now.
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp644-saccharomyces-bruxellensis-trois

 

[bsangel37]

Hey thanks IslandLizard and derekcw83 for the suggestions, I'll have to look up whirpool/hopstand I'm not sure what that is exactly (told ya I was new!) But I have been breaking up my LME additions I found that to be much better in my 2nd batch from my first.

Yes I thought that seems long for a dry hop, my last batch was 5 days.

And I'm planning on a partial boil, 4 gallons topping off the 5th at fermentation.

Since you haven't mentioned yeast, which matters, I'd recommend using WLP644 yeast for even more tropical aroma. This strain by itself gives a good amount of tropical character, and is my go-to IPA strain now.
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp644-saccharomyces-bruxellensis-trois

Oops yeah forgot that, the yeast is US-05 but I'll look for WLP644, thanks for that one!

 

[IslandLizard]

Since you haven't mentioned yeast, which matters, I'd recommend using WLP644 yeast for even more tropical aroma. This strain by itself gives a good amount of tropical character, and is my go-to IPA strain now.
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp644-saccharomyces-bruxellensis-trois

Keep in mind, this the OP's 3rd brew. Using any liquid yeast means he needs to make a starter. But I agree, yeast selection plays an important role. WY1318 or Yeast Bay's Vermont Ale yeast come to mind too.

On a different front, the OP does need fermentation temperature control. Also, if he's using secondaries, he needs to kick that habit right away.

 

[bsangel37]

Keep in mind, this the OP's 3rd brew. Using any liquid yeast means he needs to make a starter. But I agree, yeast selection plays an important role. WY1318 or Yeast Bay's Vermont Ale yeast come to mind too.

On a different front, the OP does need fermentation temperature control. Also, if he's using secondaries, he needs to kick that habit right away.

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Sorry my response time is going to be very slow, I assume this moderated post review goes away after a few posts! (EDIT: Well it seems as if this posted instantly but my last one is in moderator limbo but until it's posted, it was just a thank you for the suggestions, and that I'll look into the whirpool/hopstand process!)

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I'm not shy about making a starter but I'll look into all of these yeasts. I'm lucky enough to have a closet in my basement that sits at a constant 68 degrees so it's been fine for the US-05 I have been using, but looking at these others I might have to figure out some other method of temperature control as they seems to be 70+.

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As far as secondaries, only for 5-7 days of dry hopping. I'm guessing you're suggesting that I stick to dry hopping in the primary?

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Oh, and to answer your other question, it's a 4 gallon partial boil, with a 5th to top it off in the carboy.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sorry my response time is going to be very slow, I assume this moderated post review goes away after a few posts! (EDIT: Well it seems as if this posted instantly but my last one is in moderator limbo but until it's posted, it was just a thank you for the suggestions, and that I'll look into the whirpool/hopstand process!)

I'm not shy about making a starter but I'll look into all of these yeasts. I'm lucky enough to have a closet in my basement that sits at a constant 68 degrees so it's been fine for the US-05 I have been using, but looking at these others I might have to figure out some other method of temperature control as they seems to be 70+.

As far as secondaries, only for 5-7 days of dry hopping. I'm guessing you're suggesting that I stick to dry hopping in the primary?

Actually, your response record (e.g., "likes" given, and reply) is way better than most new users asking questions and input.

I want to apologize for those delays you're experiencing, it's annoying. They have been instituted recently, for the first few posts by new members are moderated to cut down on the waves of spam we've been enduring here from time to time. Only to see a whole tsunami of them taking over last night. Simply blocking newly started threads containing Korean symbols would have sufficed, IMO. </rant>

66-68F is a great temperature for most ale yeasts. In addition, putting the fermentor in a tub with water forming a large heat sink, keeps temps more stable and wicks away any heat generated during fermentation faster.

No, those yeasts too do their main work around 66-68F. But you do want to raise them to 72-74F to let them finish out, before they're totally done. Usually we dry hop at that same time.

An aquarium heater (the manual adjustable kind) in that tub can take care of that slight temp increase. There are other ways.

You try to limit or eliminate O2 (air) exposure as much as possible. Hoppy beers are most prone to the effects of oxidation. When you make a yeast starter you overbuild it, so you can save some out to build a new starter from for your next brew, etc. Or save some trubby yeast from the bottom of your fermentor and pitch as is. Either way works fine. Actually repitching yeast can help to get even better beer in most cases than from fresh pitches.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Oh, and to answer your other question, it's a 4 gallon partial boil, with a 5th to top it off in the carboy.

If you're on a stove you could do a full boil using a 2nd large pot for the remaining gallon. Then combine right before chilling/hopstand/whirlpool.

Since you're using extract, you could probably boil for only 30 minutes, using a little extra bittering hop to make up for the shorter boil time.

Boiling extract for a long time adds a certain "extract twang" to beer. Hence the split LME addition to keep it fresher tasting, preventing excessive caramelization, while at the same time getting better hop utilization, especially since you're diluting it a bit later on.

 

[bsangel37]

No apology necessary, I understand how spam can be an issue.

Thanks for the info on that, I think I may just dry hop in the primary then this time. Plus changing up the hop schedule should help out quite a bit. My last batch was an amarillo APA and while I didn't dryhop in a secondary I did do so in the keg itself so I'd like to think that there wasn't too much O2 in there. Maybe a purge with the co2 tank would help?

It came out very bitter and not too aromatic, though that has subsided over the weeks it has been in the keg. Maybe it was the schedule? I was getting more of the malt in smell and taste. I'd like to get more of those fruit aromas and flavors in this next batch which is why I think the hopstand idea sounds great.

Oops wow that was huge, I should've resized it on my phone!

 

[bsangel37]

If you're on a stove you could do a full boil using a 2nd large pot for the remaining gallon. Then combine right before chilling/hopstand/whirlpool.

Since you're using extract, you could probably boil for only 30 minutes, using a little extra bittering hop to make up for the shorter boil time.

Boiling extract for a long time adds a certain "extract twang" to beer. Hence the split LME addition to keep it fresher tasting, preventing excessive caramelization, while at the same time getting better hop utilization, especially since you're diluting it a bit later on.

If I have half the LME in the 4 gallon pot, with the bittering hops, then take the last few and hopstand, what would that last gallon be doing in a second pot?

And yes I found that splitting the LME worked much better last time, as my first brew was a kit IPA and it came out tasting like a caramel-ish red ale!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Just throwing this out there, but has anyone had any experience with Denali hops? My son was coming up with a kind of "Upside-Down Pineapple Cake" ale, and in the research, he read that Denali is good for pineapple notes. It might or might not fit in with the OP's plans .....

 

[bsangel37]

Just throwing this out there, but has anyone had any experience with Denali hops? My son was coming up with a kind f "Upside-Down Pineapple Cake" ale, and in the research, he read that Denali is good for pineapple notes. It might or might not fit in with the OP's plans .....

Hmm I'll have to keep that in mind. Though what I have right now has plenty of pineapple mixed in with other notes, and I don't want to go overboard as I'm not a huge fan of pineapple, but thanks for the suggestion!

 

[andrewmaixner]

Keep in mind, this the OP's 3rd brew. Using any liquid yeast means he needs to make a starter. But I agree, yeast selection plays an important role. WY1318 or Yeast Bay's Vermont Ale yeast come to mind too.

On a different front, the OP does need fermentation temperature control. Also, if he's using secondaries, he needs to kick that habit right away.

I'd have to disagree about starters being an absolute requirement. I have used this strain (and many others) as a direct-pitched vial, a non-startered slurry from the fridge, and slurry-based starter, all with completely fine results.
This is just a 1.050-1.070 IPA, not a 1.111 scotch heavy (for which I would definitely make a huge multi-step starter)

Also, http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

 

[IslandLizard]

I'd have to disagree about starters being an absolute requirement. I have used this strain (and many others) as a direct-pitched vial, a non-startered slurry from the fridge, and slurry-based starter, all with completely fine results.
This is just a 1.050-1.070 IPA, not a 1.111 scotch heavy (for which I would definitely make a huge multi-step starter)

Also, http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

The old debate...

If we were to keep accurate statistics, I'm willing to bet the success rate of good beer when pitching adequate cell counts from fresh starters is significantly higher than pitching a "direct pitch" vial without a starter. Sure, yeast vitality certainly plays a large role in that too. Thorough oxygenation of the wort directly prior to pitching is another positive factor. Research on how all variables (many yet unknown) play together is slow forthcoming.

 

[IslandLizard]

If I have half the LME in the 4 gallon pot, with the bittering hops, then take the last few and hopstand, what would that last gallon be doing in a second pot?

And yes I found that splitting the LME worked much better last time, as my first brew was a kit IPA and it came out tasting like a caramel-ish red ale!

You would distribute your LME and boil hop additions proportionally over the various kettles/pots. 1/3 of LME up front should be plenty. IMO, aiming for a 1.030 boil wort works better than higher. With 2 pots open, you will suffer quite a bit more boil off (as much as double), so account for that.

A top up of 25% water is doable, but realistically may also be about the upper limit for IPAs. a) It's more difficult to obtain higher (125%) extraction. b) which you're then diluting by 20% (to 80%).

 

[bsangel37]

You would distribute your LME and boil hop additions proportionally over the various kettles/pots. 1/3 of LME up front should be plenty. IMO, aiming for a 1.030 boil wort works better than higher. With 2 pots open, you will suffer quite a bit more boil off (as much as double), so account for that.

A top up of 25% water is doable, but realistically may also be about the upper limit for IPAs. a) It's more difficult to obtain higher (125%) extraction. b) which you're then diluting by 20% (to 80%).

Ah I see what you mean now. Ok great, thanks for the info!

 

[berndawg84]

Since you haven't mentioned yeast, which matters, I'd recommend using WLP644 yeast for even more tropical aroma. This strain by itself gives a good amount of tropical character, and is my go-to IPA strain now.
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp644-saccharomyces-bruxellensis-trois

Oh cool, didn't know about this strain. Has anyone made an NE IPA with the 644? I wonder how it compare to say, the 1318 strain.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Oh cool, didn't know about this strain. Has anyone made an NE IPA with the 644? I wonder how it compare to say, the 1318 strain.

I haven't done a side by side, but I think I like it better. I've had people set aside unfinished good commercial IPAs with the comment "why am i drinking this?" After tasting some of my 644/simcoe/Amarillo/ctz stuff.