*******: Homebrewing - The Floating Heater

[The_Glue]

Is this a really bad idea?

So this is basically an immersion heater but it can auto-adjust itself to the wort level because it is floating.

The pot is stainless steel, the box is a microwaveable food container which is good up to 230F/110C, the heater is stainless steel and brass. In theory the container is large enough (1.8l/half gallon) to keep itself and the element afloat.
The pot will be grounded.

In some ways i think this is more safe than drilling my stainless steel pot.

The brown clouds are the wort, the red lines are the wiring. I think the box will be closed and there will be some kind of wire holder/fastener there.

The only weakness i can think at the moment is what if the heater will be hotter around the threads than 100C? Is this possible?

I will never boil less water than the height of the heater and box combined btw.

 

[fartinmartin]

Looks like we have the same problem, I have just posted this up.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Home-Gard...ement-220V-3000W-/400472199827#ht_3668wt_1092

Your point about higher temps at your terminals could be overcome by side mounting your element and weighting the box.
I moved away from your method due to worries about condensation between the terminals.

 

[fartinmartin]

oh dear , I wish I hadnt posted this now.
It has IEC protection class 0 and not alloowed for sake in the UK and most other places due to earthing !

These appliances have no protective-earth connection and feature only a single level of insulation and were intended for use in dry areas. A single fault could cause an electric shock or other dangerous occurrence. Sales of these items have been banned in the UK since 1975.[citation needed]

 

[The_Glue]

I dont think i would try those immersion heater elements because of the constant adjusting of the cable lenght due to the boil off.

I think if i would put the top on the box and guide the cable out with a cable gland then vapor could not really get in so there would be no condensation.

What do you mean by side mounting the element?

 

[fartinmartin]

By side mounting , I meant that the element would be horizontal.
Even without liquid getting into the box, condensation will occur in the air in the box, won't it ?

The same earthing details apply to the box proposal .

I know in our homes we have water heaters that are vertically mounted, but they seldom exceed 45 C degs.

 

[The_Glue]

I am not getting how the parts inside of the box of the heating element could be possibly sitting at a lower temp when the element is horizontal than when it is vertical. Basically what i fear is that the thread of the element will be too hot since it is sitting in free air and will melt out of the plastic box. On the other hand maybe the "heating-action" wont start around the threads of the element and/or the heat distribution is good enough.

Maybe i should put it in some floating metal box?

 

[jeffmeh]

To be honest, I think you are overcomplicating things. Why not hang the heatstick as low as you can, and make sure that your volumes will never drop below the element? You can even use a 90 degree elbow on the bottom so the element is horizontal and low.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Just drill your pot! Get a cheap step bit. Go slow with it and stop short of where you need to be. If you have to, use a file for the rest of the way.

This isn't a bad idea per se, but there are so many things that can go wrong!

 

[The_Glue]

To be honest, I think you are overcomplicating things. Why not hang the heatstick as low as you can, and make sure that your volumes will never drop below the element? You can even use a 90 degree elbow on the bottom so the element is horizontal and low.

I thought about that first but i've seen here that starting with more (extra amount adjusted for the boil off rate) wort than the final amount and letting it boil away is better than constantly topping up wort.

 

[The_Glue]

Just drill your pot! Get a cheap step bit. Go slow with it and stop short of where you need to be. If you have to, use a file for the rest of the way.

This isn't a bad idea per se, but there are so many things that can go wrong!

I have the proper drill bits qnd stuff but i would need 1 or 2 metal washers for a proper fit and silicone gaskets but i cant seem to find non-galvanized steel washers and silicone gaskets.

 

[kenh]

I'd say let us know how it works but if one of the terminals or even a defective element leaks voltage to the wort you might not be around to report!

 

[augiedoggy]

I have the proper drill bits qnd stuff but i would need 1 or 2 metal washers for a proper fit and silicone gaskets but i cant seem to find non-galvanized steel washers and silicone gaskets.

Well you really don't need a silicone washer since it sits on the outside of the pot and stainless washers can be found all over.... you can always that "Google" thing to search.... If they are the standard water heater size you can get the stuff at bargainfittings .com ...grainger and eBay has your washers too... you only use one gasket per element and I didn't use any washers... just a nut on the inside of my pots.
I know your in the UK but some of the many sites advertising on this forum have to ship there... if not I have always had good luck doing a Google search.
That floating element idea is over complicating things and seems like an accident waiting to happen to me. Also if you get the ultra low density elements they can be dry fired without ruining them and have the added benefit to be less likely to scortch the wort.

 

[big_len]

Is this a really bad idea?

Yes.

You can get a 50 litre SS pot from a source in Germany for £47 delivered to the UK. Buy it, cut it and fit two kettle elements and look back at this idea in months to come and chuckle to yourself...

 

[kal]

I think it's a very bad, very unsafe idea.

While that microwaveable food container may be able to heated to fairly hot temps, it's not going to be structurally sound at all and I see leaks being something that would happen fairly quickly.

There's the whole idea of this thing bouncing around in the kettle during vigorous boil. It'll eventually break/chip/etc.

The wires coming over the edge are going to be splashed with 212F wort and be contact with the metal kettle at 212F. You'd have to protect these wires well.

IMHO much more dangerous than permanently fixing a heating element to the side. The kettle side is solid and rigid.

Kal

 

[The_Glue]

Well you really don't need a silicone washer since it sits on the outside of the pot and stainless washers can be found all over.... you can always that "Google" thing to search.... If they are the standard water heater size you can get the stuff at bargainfittings .com ...grainger and eBay has your washers too... you only use one gasket per element and I didn't use any washers... just a nut on the inside of my pots.
I know your in the UK but some of the many sites advertising on this forum have to ship there... if not I have always had good luck doing a Google search.
That floating element idea is over complicating things and seems like an accident waiting to happen to me. Also if you get the ultra low density elements they can be dry fired without ruining them and have the added benefit to be less likely to scortch the wort.

I am actually from the mainland EU, i think my element is pretty low density. (it is not the one on the picture in the first post)
To be honest i think my element will be about as unsafe as an immersion heater which is not that bad.

Yes.

You can get a 50 litre SS pot from a source in Germany for £47 delivered to the UK. Buy it, cut it and fit two kettle elements and look back at this idea in months to come and chuckle to yourself...

that sounds good, can you give me a link?

I think it's a very bad, very unsafe idea.

While that microwaveable food container may be able to heated to fairly hot temps, it's not going to be structurally sound at all and I see leaks being something that would happen fairly quickly.

There's the whole idea of this thing bouncing around in the kettle during vigorous boil. It'll eventually break/chip/etc.

The wires coming over the edge are going to be splashed with 212F wort and be contact with the metal kettle at 212F. You'd have to protect these wires well.

IMHO much more dangerous than permanently fixing a heating element to the side. The kettle side is solid and rigid.

Kal

My wires are rated for a higher temp. Do you think it would be an improvement to use a small SS metal bowl or something similar instead of a plastic box? (i choosed plastic because of the insulation)

BTW i dont want to use this design for ever, it is more like i want to get familiar with the heater before i drill holes on a new pot.

 

[kal]

My wires are rated for a higher temp.

The wire is rated to be in contact with 212F objects continuously? What wire is it?

Do you think it would be an improvement to use a small SS metal bowl or something similar instead of a plastic box? (i choosed plastic because of the insulation)

Yes. It would be an improvement but I still wouldn't do it. I still think it would be overly dangerous.

You don't need it to be insulated. You want it in fact to all be grounded for highest safety.

BTW i dont want to use this design for ever, it is more like i want to get familiar with the heater before i drill holes on a new pot.

i would just build it the way you intend to use it long term (affixed to the pot) as it's safer, is less work (you don't do things twice), and costs you less.

Kal

 

[The_Glue]

I am not sure if the wire is rated for continous 212F but it was sold as some kind of wire suitable for hotter enviroments.

This morning i tried to drill 2 different food boxes and all of them cracked with the starter bit size (3mm or ~1/8inch) so i took it as a sign to abandon this idea. I think i am ready to buy a turkey fryer.

 

[fartinmartin]

Are you sure. Why not persue the installed electric angle? The electric elements in the brew pot must be more efficient than external heat source!

 

[The_Glue]

Are you sure. Why not persue the installed electric angle? The electric elements in the brew pot must be more efficient than external heat source!

The element i bought is somewhat problematic. The size of the threads are not compatible with most of the washers, screws etc. sold in my country. The threads are made of brass which might contain lead. Also they are not really in level, it looks it was manufactured poorly. So i need metal washers on the inside to make it fit right to the wall of the pot. But then to get a non galvanized washer i would have travel a lot for a 10 cent part.

I mean in the end i might will end up with something that works and if not i destroyed a new pot. Or for the cost of travelling to get all the parts i could get a gas setup going.

btw i feel pretty safe around electronic stuff, i am somewhat scared of a PB gas setup.

 

[fartinmartin]

Ok , so you have bought the wrong element. Take one with a plug and socket type element, only work required is one hole ( or two if we want to get really going with two elements ), it will plug in externally, my only problem with it is washing up, cleaning and getting water into the socket during the clean up.

 

[mattd2]

i'm glad to see you have gone away from using the "food boxes". my comment was that even the ones with the rubber gaskets do not seal 100% - whenever I use them for holding food with a sauce/oil, my food bag is covered with it once I get home! If you did go that route you would want to use a box rated at least IP67 and SS would be the best option to allow grounding, this would likely cost huge amounts of money and not be practical. People have installed hot water elements in pots many times before, a lot of them using just a SS locknut (no-welding). I see you are using a different type of element, but check out some UK based homebrew forums and someone on there should have done what you want to do before.

 

[mattd2]

The element i bought is somewhat problematic. The size of the threads are not compatible with most of the washers, screws etc. sold in my country. The threads are made of brass which might contain lead. Also they are not really in level, it looks it was manufactured poorly. So i need metal washers on the inside to make it fit right to the wall of the pot. But then to get a non galvanized washer i would have travel a lot for a 10 cent part.

I mean in the end i might will end up with something that works and if not i destroyed a new pot. Or for the cost of travelling to get all the parts i could get a gas setup going.

btw i feel pretty safe around electronic stuff, i am somewhat scared of a PB gas setup.

If your element is the same as the second photo you posted should it not be installed as:
element - element flared flange - silicon/nylon washer - pot wall - washer (needs to be bought - either SS or galv) - nut
If it is not in contact with the water/wort then it does not need to be SS. Also you need to think about enclosing the live electrical connections (maybe some heatshrink would work ok for these types of elements?)

 

[cjgenever]

I have the proper drill bits qnd stuff but i would need 1 or 2 metal washers for a proper fit and silicone gaskets but i cant seem to find non-galvanized steel washers and silicone gaskets.

1" npt ss washer, grooved for silicon o-ring. Got mine on eBay $4.50 ea. Silicon gaskets 15 for $7.

I used these for the acidic conditions (post hlt) and galv in the hlt (encapsulated in silicon).

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[big_len]

The pots can be got from this guy on eBay Germany:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/catering-portal

Just drop him a message and he'll send you a price and a link to buy one - it won't be through eBay but don't worry, myself and 100s of others have used him. They are welded pots, not fully spun. They won't win any beauty contest and can arrive with small dings in them but at that money you can't complain

 

[Lopsy]

I didn't read the whole thing, maybe somebody already said this, but... Good lord, please don't float your elements with a food safe container.