Homebrewing Service?

[mrkstel]

First, let me preface this by saying that I am NOT doing this, nor am I planning on doing this. The question arose during a conversation with a co-worker and I just thought I would get a few other opinions.

The question is: Would it be legal to provide homebrewing services for a fee? For example, imagine you had a buddy who loved your latest Coors Light Clone and he would like you to brew him a batch using your equipment. He would purchase all the ingredients and you would brew it, ferment it and keg/bottle it. In return, would it be legal to charge him a service fee for "general labor" or "storage space" or "carboy rental"? Another approach would be to sell him supplies (grain, hops, yeast) from your inventory at a marked up price. Then you brew the beer for him. I think you see where I'm going with this. It is his beer. He owns it. You would just be providing a service or selling him unregulated supplies.

My gut tells me that it would still be considered selling alcohol in the eyes of the BATF. Am I right?

Again, I'm not planning on doing this. Just making conversation.

 

[NorCalAngler]

Once the yeast hits the wort I don't think it's legal anymore. I bet you could skirt the rules by charging for finished wort then let your client pitch the yeast, but I'm not a lawyer nor do I have any understanding of the alcohol laws in any state.

 

[finley]

I think the issue (ATF) would come in once you pitched the yeast. IANAL, but the LHBS mentioned that they could do everything in their shop, but they could not pitch yeast, at that point it falls under different regs.

If I remember correctly there is a company on one of the brewing tv episodes that does something similar to this, where they have a brewmaster helping people out to make up a recipe, etc.

 

[winstonofbeer]

I could be completely wrong here, And if i am..I know i will be corrected.

General idea here is, No you cant "sell" your beer outright.

If someone wants your beer, and you are willing to make it for them...Great.

Hand them the list of what you need, Send them down to the local homebrew store or have them get it online and you make it.

You can Not make ANY profit from beer.
Basicly, Profit = someone wants there tax $$$$
No Profit = no worries

 

[IrregularPulse]

For legality I would sell him wort. Then give him the wort along with an optional carboy renting fee. It's up to him what he wants to do with his Malt koolaid you just sold him. If he decides to ferment it, that's up to him, Then you could always help him bottle it for free at his place as a friendly gesture (the price is just inflated into the price of the malt koolaid you sold him of course.

That being said, if it's just a buddy that wants to buy an occasional batch, I would just brew it bottle it and charge him whatever you agreed on. I wouldn't go making it a company or doing it all the time to make thousands of dollars. Yes, technically you're selling beer without a license, but c'mon.

 

[mrkstel]

I think the issue (ATF) would come in once you pitched the yeast. IANAL, but the LHBS mentioned that they could do everything in their shop, but they could not pitch yeast, at that point it falls under different regs.

Huh, I never thought of that. So, maybe you could sell him finished wort, have him pitch the yeast and then charge a storage fee to store the wort while it ferments.

 

[Revvy]

Here we go again, people trying to circumvent a very clear cut set of laws...

Any form of EXCHANGE for homebrew is considered illegal under the 1978 repeal of the ban on homebrewing, H.R. 1337...unless of course you become licensed to do so, and pay taxes.

That's the bottom line, folks.

In fact Bartering of alcohol of any type is illegal, period, even for licensed retailers.

Trading or Bartering

The trading or bartering of alcoholic beverages for cash or in exchange for different alcoholic beverages by and between retail liquor dealers, in order that they may take advantage of special deals involving quantity discounts or free goods offered by wholesale liquor dealers, is not a bona fide loan of liquors described in Revenue Ruling 54-509 which outlines transactions constituting bona fide loans. Such trading or bartering constitutes sales for purpose of resale and engaging in this practice would subject the retail dealers to liability for special tax as wholesale liquor dealers and would necessitate the acquiring of basic permits as wholesale liquor dealers. This ruling relates only to the trading or bartering of merchandise between retailers after purchase thereof by one or more retailers individually, and not to the cooperative purchasing of alcoholic beverages by several retailers, dealt with in Revenue Ruling 56-204.

26 U.S.C. 5111; 27 CFR 194.28

And if you are planning to do so, I wouldn't be discussing it on the largest homebrewing site on the web......

Whenever a thread like this, or someone trying to make money off homebrew for whatever reason, charity or otherwise, all these "armchair lawyers," come up with all the ways they think could be "get arounds" the law. Sorry kids, you can hypothesize all you want, but do you notice ever any actually attorneys with knowledge of the law ever coming up with some of this stuff? No.

Whether we agree with the laws or not. You can't loophole your way through this. The laws are pretty specific in regards to homebrewing- any medium of exchange, be it money or barter involving homebrew is illegal.

Remember homebrewing wasn't re-legalized after the Volstead act was repealed in 1933, it wasn't legalized until 1978, and it took a lot of work in those 45 years to get it to happen....and despite it's federal legalization, it is STILL on a State by State basis.

Wasn't it legalized in Utah JUST this very year?

Do a little reading on the history of prohibition and the legalizing of homebrewing, and maybe you'll quit the idiotic hypothisizing about trying to get around the law, and realize what a fine razors edge this hobby sits on to many folks.

Some folks still think you can go blind drinking homebrew.
Other's can't distinguish what we're doing with making meth.

Hell even some cops look on what we're doing with suspicion.

Don't believe me? Check out this Cops episode if you haven't already....look at what "John Law" has to say about our little hobby. "The concotion he was making could be deadly..."



Hell, if MADD gets ever gets their way the oldschool version of prohibition may be like a picnic, compared to what it would be like in modern times. You think they'd let us make anything? (HomeWine making was sort of legal during prohibition as long as you didn't sell)

Look what may be happening in Canada; DUI legislation may expand to allow random breathalyzer tests

No probable cause would be necessary to be forced to breath into a tube.

Quit thinking you can run around the law....if you really want to help, then try to change the laws....Write your congress people, better yet become a congressperson. But quit thinking you can scheme your way through this.

That's what doesn't help give us a good name.

Read this for some enlightenment...It was one of our members https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/ohio-university-homebrew-festival-shut-down-140105/#post1590903

And this from just a couple weeks ago https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/alabama-homebrewer-arrested-194144/?highlight=alabama

This thread has all of the links covering the bill that legalized Homebrewing...it is a good resource and a very good read.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/history-home-brewing-legalization-u-s-seeking-info-194974/


If you want to do this, contact the local liquor control commission, find out the laws, and follow the legal process and do it. Plenty of people have. All it It takes time and money.....

 

[NorCalAngler]

Huh, I never thought of that. So, maybe you could sell him finished wort, have him pitch the yeast and then charge a storage fee to store the wort while it ferments.

I doubt it. If you are charging a fee and delivering an end product that is alcoholic then it's illegal. Your end product would have to be the wort. Client takes it home and pitches the yeast. Plastic buckets are cheap so if you have to tack on an extra $15 for the bucket then I doubt it's an issue. I'm not sure how you get around the bottling issue though.

And after reading Revvy's note I guess I'll gracefully bow out of this discussion. Like I said in my first post I'm not a lawyer and don't have any knowledge of alcohol laws in any of our lovely states

 

[remilard]

Let me ask an analogous question.

If I assault you with a baseball bat and say I've played a game of softball, and knowing that playing softball is legal, have I broken the law?

 

[mrkstel]

Revvy,

I was serious when I said this was just a question that came from a co-worker. It was just a curiosity. I have NO intention of doing this. I'm sorry if it came off as a tongue in cheek question. I enjoy the hobby too much to risk jeopordizing it for everyone. And frankly, if a buddy does want a batch of my coors light clone, I would gladly brew if for him, no charge. I will gladly remove the thread if you think it will cause problems.

Sorry,

mrkstel

 

[Revvy]

By the way, it's not the atf that deals with this stuff anymore, hasn't been since 9-11. after 9-11 they don't care about a bunch of monshiners and homebrewers these days...it's all fertilizer bombs and "crotch rockets" now.

The beer/wine/spirits have been handed over to the TTB...The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

It's ALL about the taxes now....

So if you are going to break any laws you might as well know which branch is going to come after you.

 

[cruckin78]

You could give your client a 5 gallon sample of your homebrew.

If your client was inclined to tip the brewer, i do believe that would be legal. Just sayin.

 

[mrkstel]

Let me ask an analogous question.

If I assault you with a baseball bat and say I've played a game of softball, and knowing that playing softball is legal, have I broken the law?

Point taken. This would be illegal and I have no interest in doing it.

Anyone know how to delete a thread?

 

[jgln]

Here in Jersey there are two places I believe that you can go there and make your own wine using their facilities and equipment and of course they provide direction and grapes, yeast, bottles etc I assume. I don't know if they have a liquor license though, but wouldn't that kind of be the same thing? I guess the difference is you are making your own wine instead of someone making it for you.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Yes. It is leagal to do this. So long as you,

Get a license, pay taxes, go through a distributor (regional) and establish your self AS A BREWERY!

It is as simple as that.

 

[mb2696]

...And frankly, if a buddy does want a batch of my coors light clone, I would gladly brew if for him, no charge...

Unfortunately, even that may be technically illegal. In VA, it is illegal to GIVE AWAY more than a six-pack to one person in one year. In NE, homebrew must be "made solely for the use of the maker and his or her family and guests."

Info about each state here: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes

 

[finley]

I think you might be hitting the distinction between a brewery that does custom batches, and a homebrew.

 

[RDWHAHB]

I think there should be an amatuer lawyer section to HBT!

 

[l1ranger]

why not just have them buy the ingredients and come over and use your equipment and do it themselves.
they get to learn something new, they get homebrew that they made and there's no money involved.

granted, its going to tie up a fermenter, but when you can get a bucket for 20 bucks, why not have them get their own bucket

 

[Revvy]

Here in Jersey there are two places I believe that you can go there and make your own wine using their facilities and equipment and of course they provide direction and grapes, yeast, bottles etc I assume. I don't know if they have a liquor license though, but wouldn't that kind of be the same thing? I guess the difference is you are making your own wine instead of someone making it for you.

The TTB governs Brew On Premises alongside state and local laws.

Revised: 2/21/03

B1: What are the guidelines if I want to use brew-on-premises facilities that are not connected to a brewery?
Federal Guidelines For Brew-On-Premises Facilities
These guidelines apply to a Brew-on-Premises facility that is not connected to a brewery.

1. A person may operate a "Brew-on-Premises" (BOP) business without qualifying as a brewery or paying excise tax on beer produced at the BOP by adults under the conditions outlined below. No Federal regulations currently apply to the operation of a BOP business.

2. Adults may produce beer at a BOP for personal or family use. Adults who use BOP facilities to make beer are governed by existing regulations in 27 CFR §§ 25.205 - 25.206, as follows:

* Adults must be 18 years of age (or other age required for the purchase of beer in the locality).
* Adults may jointly produce beer at a BOP provided other conditions are met. Adults may produce beer must for personal or family use only.
* Personal and family beer is not subject to Federal excise tax. A home brewer may produce, without payment of tax, per household, up to 100 gallons per calendar year if there is one adult residing in the household, or 200 gallons of beer per year if there are two or more adults residing in the household.
* Home brewers may remove their beer from the BOP for personal or family use, including use in organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions (such as homemaker's contests or tastings).
* Home brewers may not produce beer for sale or offer their beer for sale.

3. Proprietors and employees of Brew-on-Premises facilities: May furnish space, brewing equipment, ingredients, bottling supplies, and advice and expertise to customers. They may also furnish unfermented wort to BOP customers. May provide certain assistance to customers including: Moving containers of beer between storage areas. Cleaning, maintenance, and repair of equipment. Climate and temperature control. Disposal of spent grains and wastes. Quality control (including laboratory analysis and tasting of beer for quality control purposes). May not provide physical assistance to, or on behalf of, customers in the production, storage, or bottling of beer; for example, employees may not ferment mash, filter or bottle beer, add sugar or other ingredients to beer, or provide other physical assistance in producing or bottling beer. May not provide non-tax paid beer to customers or prospective customers for sampling purposes.

4. You must operate Brew-on-Premises business in compliance with State and local laws. The ability to produce beer for personal or family use and without payment of tax at a BOP under Federal law does not authorize production of beer by adults, or operation of a BOP business, in violation of state or local law.

5. Operation of a BOP business in a manner contrary to the conditions outlined may cause the facility to be considered a brewery, subject to all statutory and regulatory provisions relating to brewery operation (see item # 6).

6. Under some circumstances, a TTB qualified brewery may operate a Brew-on-Premises business. All beer produced at a BOP business on brewery premises is taxable under Federal law, must be labeled with information under 27 CFR Part 25 and with the Government Warning Statement, and is subject to record keeping and other requirements. For further information regarding qualification of a brewery or operation of a BOP at a brewery, contact the National Revenue Center, Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, 550 Main Street, Room 8002 Cincinnati, OH 45202 or call toll-free at (800) 398-2282.

Mighty interesting reading on brewing laws on the ttb website http://www.ttb.gov/beer/faqs.shtml#b1

 

[Homercidal]

I say if he wants your beer, you can brew at his place and he can pitch the yeast. He buys the basic equipment needed to ferment in and bottle. Give him specific instructions on how to manage the fermentation (temps and process) and then come back and help him bottle. I'm sure you guys could arrange to meet at a brewpub and discuss the brewing process further (hint hint).

And after a couple of these, he will know enough about the brewing process to do it himself if he still wants the beer.

It may be more work than brewing in your own home, but there is simply no way around transporting fermented beer around without breaking the law. In Michigan there is a 20 gallon cap on giving out homebrew.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

Revvy...I've always wondered why you post the bartering law as it only applies to retailers that have already purchased from a distributor. It has no connection to what anyone here is asking about. Trades, samples, etc are a fact of life within the alcohol business. Of course that is producer to producer, producer to wholesaler, producer to retailer, or wholesaler to retailer. That statute is for retailer to retailer bartering.

 

[jonbomb]

Revvy,

I was serious when I said this was just a question that came from a co-worker. It was just a curiosity. I have NO intention of doing this. I'm sorry if it came off as a tongue in cheek question. I enjoy the hobby too much to risk jeopordizing it for everyone. And frankly, if a buddy does want a batch of my coors light clone, I would gladly brew if for him, no charge. I will gladly remove the thread if you think it will cause problems.

Sorry,

mrkstel

I put a post like this up last month and said the same thing. That I wasn't going to do it but I was just curious about it. I got the same response...

I feel if you are brewing in his house with his ingredients you are fine. He will be paying you to "cook". Whats so wrong about that?? You are brewing in his house with his ingredients and hes paying you to do it for him. I don't see the problem. Maybe there is a law out there in regards to selling or bartering beer but I don't think it has anything to do with this. Especially if you arn't doing it on a large scale and it's just between you and your co worker.

 

[GoldMiner]

Unfortunately, even that may be technically illegal. In VA, it is illegal to GIVE AWAY more than a six-pack to one person in one year. In NE, homebrew must be "made solely for the use of the maker and his or her family and guests."

Info about each state here: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes

Land of the free?

It's illegal to give it away.

 

[gingerdawg]

There is a place in Saint Paul that does "make your own home brew" parties.

http://www.vinepark.com/

I don't know what their licensing is, but I know that they cannot serve any alcholic beverages.
How can anyone brew beer without sampling and RDWHAHBing???

 

[Revvy]

Revvy...I've always wondered why you post the bartering law as it only applies to retailers that have already purchased from a distributor. It has no connection to what anyone here is asking about. Trades, samples, etc are a fact of life within the alcohol business. Of course that is producer to producer, producer to wholesaler, producer to retailer, or wholesaler to retailer. That statute is for retailer to retailer bartering.

I do believe I make pretty clear in the sentence above the statute...

In fact Bartering of alcohol of any type is illegal, period, even for licensed retailers.

I think it relates perfectly...that BATERING for hooch is illegal no matter whether it is for a homebrewer OR in the retail industry. You may not see how it pertains, but to illustrate my point, I sure as heck do.

 

[mrkstel]

Ok, I think my question was pretty thoroughly answered. No you cannot, by any means of bartering or payment, legally charge for a home brew "service" without proper licensing and paying taxes on the produced product. Thanks for the input.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I feel if you are brewing in his house with his ingredients you are fine. He will be paying you to "cook". Whats so wrong about that?? You are brewing in his house with his ingredients and hes paying you to do it for him. I don't see the problem. Maybe there is a law out there in regards to selling or bartering beer but I don't think it has anything to do with this. Especially if you arn't doing it on a large scale and it's just between you and your co worker.

Because you are being paid to produce beer. You can try to redefine or narrowly define what is happening, but it doesn't change how law enforcement or (more importantly) a court is going to define it. Brewing is regulated both in process and in distribution under both federal tax laws and various state regulations.

Any arrangement in which you obtain compensation -- money, goods, services, or any other monetary substitute -- for producing or distributing alcoholic beverages falls under federal excise tax rules, as well as any applicable state/local rules, which generally bans you from any activity that produces such compensation, unless you are appropriately licensed.

It doesn't matter how large or small your arrangement is; it is still illegal. Although a quiet arrangement between two people may not draw the attention of law enforcement, that does not change the legality.

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

It's only illegal if you get caught.










It's also REALLY expensive and sucky if you get caught...

It's been hinted at in the above responses, but each state has different clauses in their homebrewing laws. My state doesn't allow me to give any homebrew away, it specifically states that it must be consumed on premises, which I've posted here several times, pointing out that they also seem to allow homebrew competitions which directly violates that clause...so I reiterate, it's only illegal if you get caught...

 

[Strave19]

I realize people are pretty touchy about the subject and the strictness of laws varies state to state. Its a delicate subject and bottom line is DONT BREAK THE LAW WHEN IT COMES TO HOMEBREWING! WE LOVE THIS HOBBY, DONT KILL THE HOBBY DUDE!

That being said, its very unlikely that you are ever going to get in trouble for brewing, bottling, and giving someone a batch of beer and them leaving cash on your table (in a state where you can give your beer away at least)... Here in WA, you can transport up to 20 gallons for tastings or competitions... although I would never ever do it, and dont make nearly enough to do so, but you could easily make a 5gallon batch, take it to your friends place, have a few, and leave with cash instead of beer.

As for the original question, again, DONT DO IT! But someone could theoretically concoct a 5 gallon "malt extract" to sell to your buddy for him to do whatever he wishes. would it be legal?, seems like it should be, you can buy hopped malt extract online, just add water and yeast! it probably is not for some stupid reason or another though... therefore DONT DO IT!

Bottom line, it is illegal and stupid to do anything that I have suggested... if people jeopardize our beloved hobby by trying to cash in on their homebrew... I'll freak the #&*% out!

There is a lot that you can probably do and get away with... but its likely illegal... dont do it...