homebrew taste........(where does it come from!)

[nukebrewer]

I think at least part of the equation is mental. I brewed a red once that after I tried it I thought had the "homebrew taste." Then one time I meant to grab a Killian's but accidentally grabbed the home brew. I didn't notice I was drinking the homebrew until about half way through the beer.

 

[Challenger440]

I'd vote for either residual yeast or not pitching enough yeast

 

[motlekj06]

I can always tell a difference in the beers i've brewed after having one too many, and those that i've done in a better state of mind.

 

[Denny]

I think at least part of the equation is mental. I brewed a red once that after I tried it I thought had the "homebrew taste." Then one time I meant to grab a Killian's but accidentally grabbed the home brew. I didn't notice I was drinking the homebrew until about half way through the beer.

Which is why the only objective way to taste is to do a blind triangle tasting. I've done too much research on how preconception influences perception to trust any other way.

 

[bcryan]

It sounds like the OP isn't using fancy bottles with cool artwork.

This makes me laugh.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Interesting thread. Are there any pro brewers that can substantiate the OP's claim? Most pro brewers started as home brewers. As much as I love my beer, they do share a common aftertaste. I have had much succes with my porters which do not seem to share this trait. I brew mostly ESB, Pale ales and IPA.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I went to a Reserve Society tasting at The Bruery today, and in addition to the tasting of their beers, most of the folks coming brought all sorts of amazing commercial beers. I brought along a homebrewed Gose and a homebrewed barrel-aged barleywine (club collaboration project). The Gose was extremely well received by everyone who had some, and I overheard (as I was in another conversation) people talking about the barleywine saying "this stuff easily could have come out of any of the fancy bottles that people have been passing around and nobody would know the difference". And obviously, for a Bruery Reserve Society event, these were some hardcore beer geeks.

Notes: both beers had been kegged more than long enough to be pouring quite clear, and so there should have been little to no yeast or sediment left in suspension. So for those who brought up the idea "yeast is the difference in flavor", which I pretty much agree with, here's potentially a bit of anecdotal evidence in favor of that.

So if you do it right, a good homebrew can pass for commercial quite easily.

 

[dallasdb]

I agree with you bwarbiany, the homebrew taste is probably just "green" beer. You gotta have patience grasshopper!

It's hard to be patient if you don't have a good pipeline.

 

[malt20]

It's not the green taste. I'm talking protocol here. I've researched and researched and people know what I'm talking about, they just cant explain it. I've talked to the LBS and they know what I'm getting at. It just seems no one can really explain it. I would really like a pro brewers opinion if there is one out there....

 

[malt20]

Not to dis-hearten any one. but i just feel that there are certain things that brewers don't let out once they find it.....Kind of like the game of pool...You really only know if you're taught by someone who knows the tricks already.

 

[kedash]

Interestingly, I just did this. I brewed a batch of my Rye IPA with John Maier at Rogue. I also have a batch that I brewed at home. Same recipe. Same taste. The Rogue batch has a bit thinner mouthfeel since we used Pacman on it and my yeast in the homebrew, but the flavor is the same.

And I shared a bottle of the NHC beer with a friend on Friday. He was a very happy camper!

Dan
CBS

 

[malt20]

just for fun here was my last brew session.....

11.5 lbs 2row
1 lb crystal 60
12 oz. carapils

1 oz magnum 60 min 13.1%
1 oz cascade 30 min 6.4%
1 oz cascade 10 min 6.4%
whirlfloc tab 10 min

mash @ 154 degrees F for 60 minutes...

60 minute boil session

immersion chiller to cool wort. took about 40 minutes

poured wort into plastics fermentor bucket (poured it so it got good oxygen...really foamy...)

used 1.5 liter starter that really took off....

primary of a little over 5 gallons @ 68 degrees F

1 oz cascade dry hop for 2 weeks 6.4%

I am on week one of dry hopping and I just started cold crashing. I am going to take the temp down about 5 degrees per day till I keg it in a sanke.

I guess I will let everyone know if there is a homebrew taste when I'm done if there are no more suggestions......

and that is where i am at so far

 

[user 98891]

One thing I've noticed in a lot of homebrew is being over carbonated. Typically this is done by guys who just follow the instructions on kits and put in all the priming sugar rather than the amount needed for the style. Even more so when they prime as if they are about to bottle 5 gallons, but they are really bottling less due to trub loss.

My first few brews had a distinct taste to them. I would say they all had the same background taste. This went away when I got my cooling down under 20 minutes and went to all grain. I don't really know if either of those two things had any effect or if I just got better at brewing, but my beer tastes 100 times better then the first few batches (and I thought those tasted really good).

I don't suggest pouring your wort into the fermenter. Yes, it gets you some o2, but it also gets all that stuff that should be left in the bottom of the kettle. I would get a pump and whirlpool the hot wort around your immersion chiller until you reach pitching temps, then let it sit 10 minutes and drain into your fermenter. Add your whirlfloc near the end of the boil (I do half a tab at 5 minutes) and you should leave a lot of that undesirable gunk in your kettle. I leave about half a gallon of liquid in my kettle typically. I honestly don't know if that will help the homebrew taste, but I do know that undesirable material can lead to off flavors in your beer. If you don't have a ball valve on your kettle, another nice trick I used to do is to get a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and sanitize it. Then I'd put it over the fermenter and pour the wort though that to leave the trub in the strainer bag.

 

[Backporchbrewery]

Just had a BJCP tasting exam Saturday and a homebrewed dopplebock was unanimously judged the highest score on all our sheets. We all thought it was a well made commercial beer. We later found out it had won two gold medals in homebrew competitions. In the same exam a microbrewery's Irish red was used as an un-doctored off flavor beer... it had terrible phenolics. I've had many many great homebrews that were better than a lot of microbrew beers; then again, I've had many many homebrews with off flavors that tasted "homebrewed" only because of the flaws. I think it's because you just don't really expect to experience technical flaws in beer you purchase.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Not to dis-hearten any one. but i just feel that there are certain things that brewers don't let out once they find it.....Kind of like the game of pool...You really only know if you're taught by someone who knows the tricks already.

I've *never* felt that way about basically any homebrewer I've ever met. As a general rule, a homebrewer will tell you [or show you] basically everything they do, often without being asked!

I think, really, that you're putting too much stock into the idea of "secrets". Brewing is a matter of process. You want your process to be technically sound and repeatable. From there, you start looking at places you can improve each step, whether it's brew-day processes (boil vigor, cooling process, etc), yeast processes (cell count, oxygenation, pitch temp, ferment temp), aging / package day processes (racking technique to minimize oxidation, cold crash, fining, etc). Each small improvement might not be noticeable by themselves in the final product, but in the aggregate, you make *MUCH* better beer.

Are you part of a homebrew club? If so, I'd say you should find the guys in the club who produce beer that doesn't have "the homebrew taste", and go help them with a brew day. Ask as many questions as you can, not only about what their process is, but why. I don't think you'll find that any homebrewer is going to avoid answering those questions or deliberately mislead you. Then, I'd look for some good beer judges. Have them try your beer and really look for good feedback (and how to translate that feedback back into process).

This isn't magic. There are no secrets.

 

[pjj2ba]

I've *never* felt that way about basically any homebrewer I've ever met. As a general rule, a homebrewer will tell you [or show you] basically everything they do, often without being asked!

I think, really, that you're putting too much stock into the idea of "secrets". Brewing is a matter of process. You want your process to be technically sound and repeatable. From there, you start looking at places you can improve each step, whether it's brew-day processes (boil vigor, cooling process, etc), yeast processes (cell count, oxygenation, pitch temp, ferment temp), aging / package day processes (racking technique to minimize oxidation, cold crash, fining, etc). Each small improvement might not be noticeable by themselves in the final product, but in the aggregate, you make *MUCH* better beer.

..............

This isn't magic. There are no secrets.

Agreed! No magic bullets, perhaps though a bunch of pretty good BB's. I tend to think that very good beer is the result of a whole bunch of things all being done well. Some things are more important than others, and are not secret, like sanitation, pitching rate, oxygenation, temp. control etc. I find it is often other little simple things, nothing specific though, that can put a beer over the top quality wise. Things like how you transfer you beer, how you stir it (when appropriate), how you chill it. This is the "Art" to brewing. I think it is tough to explain, and probably varies for everyone's set up.

I have a philosophy of brewing smoothly. I guess sort of Zen like. I like all of my processes to be smooth. Ultimately, this means that over the years I have figured out the simplest, easiest way for me to brew on my system. Nothing is forced. A person who was into the whole Zen thing (which I'm not) might say I take steps to not "bruise" or "injure" my wort/beer. I simply like a clean, fluidic, minimimalistic process to brew by. I'm very comfortable with every step, so this helps to cut down on little mistakes - which ultimately might be the deciding factor. It is not what you do right, it is what you didn't do wrong.

It is the whole process. I tend to think that a good beer is at most 50% due to the recipe, and that the process can in fact be more important.

I'll go with a music analogy. I got back into playing the tuba after many years of not playing. At the time I had inexpensive little horn, and occasionally I could make it sound really good. I had to work at it, and often it just sounded OK (the occasional great beer, many just OK beers). One time I had a real pro play the horn (ie., the same recipe I've been using....) and the difference was amazing. He quickly figured out the process that would make that horn sound amazing and proceeded to take that horn for the ride of it's life. Again, same recipe (horn), different process, much better result

As far as how you've described your process, nothing really jumps out at me, except maybe 40 min. to cool. I like to aim for 15 min. for this step. A lot of folks these days though are doing whirlpool hopping with great results. This often would also be a slow cooling, but perhaps there are some ways to do this that are better than others.

 

[Denny]

Not to dis-hearten any one. but i just feel that there are certain things that brewers don't let out once they find it.....Kind of like the game of pool...You really only know if you're taught by someone who knows the tricks already.

I can say that's definitely not true of the commercial or home brewers I know.

 

[malt20]

I'm just saying. professional brewers seem to word their sentences very well. maybe their under contract not to talk to much or something.

 

[Denny]

I'm just saying. professional brewers seem to word their sentences very well. maybe their under contract not to talk to much or something.

Do you actually know any commercial brewers? Your description certainly doesn't fit any I know.

 

[pjj2ba]

Not to dis-hearten any one. but i just feel that there are certain things that brewers don't let out once they find it.....Kind of like the game of pool...You really only know if you're taught by someone who knows the tricks already.

I've got to agree with Denny. All of the brewers I have met have been very open about everything.

To go back to the music analogy, I know several professional tuba players. Their playing is way, way, above that of the average player. How did they get this way? Practice and attention to detail. They will happily work with you to improve your playing and tell you everything they do (one can do it themselves without a teacher, the resources are out there, it is just easier with a teacher). One just has to put in the time, and figure out what works best for you. That has been my experience with pro brewers as well. There certainly are child prodigies in music, and I'm sure there are some folks who just have the brewing knack and make exceptional beers soon after starting brewing. The rest of us just have to work at it longer, but can get to the same level with time

 

[hotspurdotus]

just for fun here was my last brew session.....

immersion chiller to cool wort. took about 40 minutes

and that is where i am at so far

This is the only red flag for me. Why is it taking so long to cool your wort? You could be picking up some off flavors at this point.

Are you stirring your wort while the chiller is running?

 

[Braufessor]

I think some of the "subtle" things that separate homebrew from commercial -

1.) Consistency . . . it is hard (not impossible, but hard) to be as consistent with homebrew - temps, water, ferment temps, bottling, etc. etc. etc. This means that most homebrewers always have some things going on that may not have been "perfect" with their beer. Does not make their beer "bad" - just hare to really nail every thing down and repeat it over dozens of batches.

2.) Water . . . I tend to agree with what I have heard Palmer talk about - dialing in your water can turn good beer into great beer. Again, hard to do, and takes some effort to really get a handle on it.

3.) Balance - a lot of homebrewers tend to think more is better. Why use 3 grains when I can use 8? I have these hops sitting here so I might as well throw them in too. Oh, I wonder what this would taste like with fruit, or spice......or BOTH. Not that there is anything wrong with experimenting, but I think often times I have had "good" homebrews that had something "not quite right" about them, and often it is just that there are a lot of things going on that most commercial beers are not dealing with.

That being said . . . I don't know that I see any of that in what you posted so far. I would agree with involvement in a club, brew with others, have them brew with you, enter contests for unbiased feedback, etc. If there really is "a taste" in EVERY one of your homebrews, entering contests should give you some clues.

When I think of "homebrew taste" (in the negative sense) I come up with:
*oxidized from transfer issues
*Astringent from hard water
*Phenolic/Hot from fermentation temps
*Off tastes from using bleach to sanitize
*Infected from sanitation problems

None of these are "secret." They are common, but the "fix" is well known. I tend to agree with the people who do not sense a "homebrew taste." I don't sense it in my beers, or other good homebrew I have tasted. When I do sense it, it is because I made a mistake. I think that the VAST majority of homebrewers don't make homebrew that tastes like commercial beer for one simple reason - they aren't professional brewers, with the knowledge, equipment and experience to do so.

It is sort of like saying .... Every single time I play basketball there is a difference compared to how college and NBA players play basketball.... Why is that?

Brewing beer is a skill, an art. Most breweries rely on people who have spent their life learning how to brew. Most of us do it as a hobby. And, many of the homebrewers who consistently make great beer spent A LOT of time perfecting that process. Reading, sharing, learning, watching, etc. I have been at it for 15 years+, consume all the information I can, and I would never claim that all my beer is great. I think the vast majority of it is good, and some of it has turned out really great. Some of the beer I have made is better than some of the beer I have bought in bars and stores - but not all of it. The best beer will be brewed by professional brewers - that is why they are professional. Just like anything else in this world.

 

[malt20]

not personally, but I have talked to a few. I guess if you're friends with them like you apparently are then the conversation would be different. i have brought my beers into the local shop and they say that they taste great, some have been green do to the fact i try to take more then one in at a time, but the rest have been aged enough. the taste that i am getting at i guess only certain people know. I keep on reiterating that this taste isn't bad or off, not cidery or sour. just slight homebrew taste. I can actually only usually taste it on the first one usually until my taste buds get used to it and then it disappears.

I'm guess I'm gonna try to not have any trub from the wort pot go into the fermentor this next time. maybe this will take care of it or maybe I am just crazy and my taste buds are doo doo dumb or something.

 

[progmac]

I'm just saying. professional brewers seem to word their sentences very well. maybe their under contract not to talk to much or something.

clearly you're searching for some kind of holy grail or secret.

we probably can't help you with that.

 

[user 98891]

Try a blind taste test. Brew a clone of a popular but simple beer. Have a friend go into another room and pour you a glass of each and try to tell which one is the real thing. Or inversely, try it on your friends.

 

[The_Dog_42]

I had a "homebrewed" flavor in all of the beers I brewed with Ozarka natural spring water. A buddy picked up distilled for a partial mash by accident and that beer did not have the flavor. A couple more attempts later and a side by side experiment proved that the water was the culprit. (The LME provides all the nutrients needed by the yeast except zinc.)

Now when I brew AG, I'll use distilled water with some salts to create the profile I need (honestly I usually just buy a pack of burton water salts from Austin Homebrew and use that). If I brew partial mashes, I just use straight distilled water. Behind controlling fermentation temps, this made the biggest improvement to my beer.

 

[malt20]

I might try and mess with the water for fun and see what happens next time, but Fresno water is awesome for brewing. May use RO water and add everything i need in it.

 

[phenry]

I've never been told any of my beers have a "homebrew taste." One of my friends, and probably the biggest beer nerd I know, always gets a bottle or two from each of my batches. Why? Because he won't hold any restraints in criticizing them if there's something he doesn't like. Would he tell me if there was something amiss with my beers compared to all the commercial beers he buys? Of course. Has he yet? Nope (well excluding the time he tore my Berliner Weisse to shreds, but that's when we figured out he doesn't like sours).

 

[Denny]

malt20, how long have you been brewing? How many batches have you made? Have you brewed the same recipe many times to try to dial it in? And I still don't know what the "homebrew taste" you're referring to is.

And insulting people who are trying to help you is never a good idea....

 

[malt20]

I'll have to fed ex you a beer so you can try some i guess. Whenever I take my beer into the local irish pub that my old buddy owns (he's like a cicerone level 3) he only tells me if he likes them or whats wrong with them, like to them being to thin and so on and so on. He never says anything about the homebrew taste but i guess I'll have to do some blind taste test with some of my clones and see. I dont know, its frustrating trying to explain something that seeeeems impossible to explain.