Homebrew on the WEB 2012

[jdrowell15]

Exactly. I understand it takes some time to look through 1000+ entries, but you emailed them with a specific entry that received a score higher than 38. They should get off their a$$ and post it. Like I said before, it's not an honorable mention without the MENTION part. I know everyone wants to be all cool and pretend it doesn't matter to them - but you worked hard for that honorable mention, and you should get it. BTW, I finally got my scoresheets yesterday (after sending yet another reminder email), and it turns out I got two other scores over 38, neither of which is listed among the honorable mentions. Not a huge deal, but like a wise man once said, "anything worth doing is worth doing right". They should go through the entries again and make things right.

Hey Adam, so how did you score on your Cali Common? I think it's funny that we both used the name of our cities in the name of our beers.

 

[AdamWiz]

My California Common scored 38 overall, one judge gave it a 39 and the other gave it a 37. The one knock seems to be that they were looking for a bit more caramel in the aroma and flavor, both said something to that effect. I can see that, as I have brewed it more I have definitely leaned more towards the crisper, dryer side rather than the richer caramel side. And one judge said they would like to perceive a little more of the Northern Brewer woody/minty character. I did use Northern Brewer hops, I guess I should maybe bump up the flavor and aroma additions. That's the great thing about score sheets - I would have never picked up on either of those things as needing improvement, I like the beer as is. But after reading the feedback I drank one, and could see exactly what they were talking about. It's not that the malt profile as-is has anything wrong with it, but it could definitely improve with a bit more crystal/caramel in there.

 

[jdrowell15]

Damn! Man they really messed up this comp. Such a shame. I was just hoping that maybe they confused our(Jesse & Bill that is) two beers in that category and gave us 2nd place for the wrong one. And if that was the case then I could live with that and it wouldn't affect anyone else(Adam), which I really don't want to do by complaining about their screw up. And I really don't want to DEAL with complaining about yet another one of their screw ups.

Sigh...let me just explain the issue here and you guys tell me what you would do if you where in my shoes.

So in short, we entered 2 beers in category 7, which according to the rules is ok. An Alt and a Cali Common. The Cali Common, which was awarded 2nd, received a score of 39.5. The Alt, which shows up as an HM, received a score of 41.5.

So...what would you guys do??
Thanks for the input,
Jesse

 

[mlyday]

I wouldnt do anything. From the email I got from them, I think they are done, and have no interest in fixing anything.

I still dont understand how they can screw this up so bad. You have a box for each category, when the beer is reviewed you drop the sheet in the box. When that category is done, sort them high to low and pull the top three off and right the names down. Then pull any 38 or higher and write those names down for the HM. Done. Give the box to the people that send the sheets out.

 

[mlyday]

I think it just got to big to fast. They need to find someone that has run a huge competition and figure out a better way of organizing it.

 

[bigkdawg]

Damn! Man they really messed up this comp. Such a shame. I was just hoping that maybe they confused our(Jesse & Bill that is) two beers in that category and gave us 2nd place for the wrong one. And if that was the case then I could live with that and it wouldn't affect anyone else(Adam), which I really don't want to do by complaining about their screw up. And I really don't want to DEAL with complaining about yet another one of their screw ups.

Sigh...let me just explain the issue here and you guys tell me what you would do if you where in my shoes.

So in short, we entered 2 beers in category 7, which according to the rules is ok. An Alt and a Cali Common. The Cali Common, which was awarded 2nd, received a score of 39.5. The Alt, which shows up as an HM, received a score of 41.5.

So...what would you guys do??
Thanks for the input,
Jesse

Nothing you can do. From my understanding with this competition they took all beers with a score of 38 or better to a mini bos round. Then the judges pick their favorite of the group and 1,2,3 regardless of score. We figured this out when my melomel scored a 42.5, my buddies a 41 and another 40 all with HMs and the gold got a 38. My 42.5 melomel took a bronze at the 2012 mazer cup and my friends 41 took a gold and best of show at the mazer cup!! That is probably the toughest judged mead competition in the world. Take all competitions with a grain of salt.

 

[jdrowell15]

I have to share a paragraph straight out of the Michigan Beer Guide that I coincidentally just came across. Article is from the March/April issue page 18, titled The 2012 Competition Season is Here:
Homebrew at the W.E.B. Homebrew Competition:
In less than five years this competition has grown from a 200 entry competition to one of the largest and most respected Beer Competitions in the country. Last year nearly 900 beers were judged by some of the best judges around, and this year organizer expectations are to break the 1000 entry mark.

And on a side note, what about the fact that there is suppose to be another awards ceremony at the W.E.B. in May? Are they going to put on this ceremony with all these crazy mistakes?! So much for being one of the most respected competitions!

Ok, I'm off my soap box now...I think...LOL

 

[jdrowell15]

Nothing you can do. From my understanding with this competition they took all beers with a score of 38 or better to a mini bos round. Then the judges pick their favorite of the group and 1,2,3 regardless of score. We figured this out when my melomel scored a 42.5, my buddies a 41 and another 40 all with HMs and the gold got a 38. My 42.5 melomel took a bronze at the 2012 mazer cup and my friends 41 took a gold and best of show at the mazer cup!! That is probably the toughest judged mead competition in the world. Take all competitions with a grain of salt.

Ok, now there is something that finally makes some sense here, especially if the mini bos is full of ONLY certified judges. Though they should spell that out in the rules...maybe they did and I didn't notice it. LOL Guess I better read back through them again.

 

[jdrowell15]

Oh man, so now I feel like a tool. Even though they don't mention it anywhere on their site this competition used mini-bos, which is basically what bigk mentions above. They take the highest ranking judges and these judges choose from all the beers in a category, that made it to the mini-bos (usually beers that scored 38 or higher), which ones take 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. Without assigning them another score, and without seeing what they scored in initial judging. If you really think about it, this makes a lot of sense.

Sorry for my complaining! lol

 

[AdamWiz]

Still no word on where my medals are. It already took me 2 weeks and 6 emails just to see my score sheets. Now I will have to be a pest yet again and send yet another email. I'm sure the story is that they were lost in the mail somehow - although with the apparent lack of organization with this whole thing, who knows if they ever got mailed in the first place. This club should stick to brewing beer and leave running the competition to someone with enough pride to do things right, and enough pride to fix mistakes when they are pointed out. As of right now, the club's position seems to be " we know that a lot of mistakes have been made and that the results on our website are not accurate, but we don't want to do anything about it." Why bother having anything posted at all if it is not correct? They say typographical errors prevented them from being able to post a complete list - well that is BALONEY. They emailed people their scoresheets, thus they obviously have them and could post an accurate list if they were willing.

 

[AdamWiz]

They take the highest ranking judges and these judges choose from all the beers in a category, that made it to the mini-bos (usually beers that scored 38 or higher), which ones take 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. Without assigning them another score, and without seeing what they scored in initial judging. If you really think about it, this makes a lot of sense.

At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.

 

[mlyday]

At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.

Ive had thoughts of taking the BJCP test, but this is the one thing that keeps stopping me. I really dont think I could judge styles that AI dont like correctly. It might be perfect for its style, but if I think it tastes like crap i think the scores would be lower.

 

[jdrowell15]

At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.

Adam,
The beers are still, and always, judged to style. The placings are just given to the beers in order of which beers are the best example of their particular style. Not if it's a better beer then the others in that category.
Even the best of show is still done this way. For example, if u enter the best beer in the world as the wrong style and it manages to make it to BOS judging, it will(should) not win.
That would be like letting somebody who didn't know they had a flush win the hand. LOL

 

[bigkdawg]

At first I though this made sense too. But after thinking about it, this is not a good thing. Each style is judged according to its own style guidelines for a reason. If you just subjectively take beers of different subcategories and rank them against each other, why even break them up into styles to begin with? The higher score should win, period. Using the mini BOS method, you basically are just asking a judge which style they prefer - not necessarily which beer is the best example of its style. They could take an Alt that scored a 36 and rank it above a Cali common that scored a 42 just because they like Alt better.

I agree with this also, rank the beers by score, if there is a tie, then do the mini bos, but only in the case two or more beers end up with the SAME score.

 

[jdrowell15]

Ive had thoughts of taking the BJCP test, but this is the one thing that keeps stopping me. I really dont think I could judge styles that AI dont like correctly. It might be perfect for its style, but if I think it tastes like crap i think the scores would be lower.

It's hard for sure. But like anything, it takes training and practice. U learn what a beer style should taste like and u judge a beer on how well it hits those tastes. Whether u like the tastes or not. Along with beers u don't like u will no doubt come across beers that r contaminated and have other major issues. Even with those beers u have to be fair and work past the bad flavors and judge on how everything else did.
Judging beer is a very worthwhile thing to do. Not only for the brewers who's beer u r judging, but also for yourself as a homebrewer.

 

[mors]

I think some of you are missing the point of a mini bos/bos round. it's to be more impartial. Say there are 4 pairs of judges. Pair 1 gave out 8 scores over 40. It's possible they had 8 great beers. But what 1 pair of judges might give a 45 another may give a 40. Judging is subjective. The mini bos round attempts to correct this somewhat. All the beers that were judged as best to style are then evaluated side by side by a panel of judges. at this point all these beers should be 'to style'. They are judging which beers are exceptional. To just give medals based on scores would be fine if the same judging pair judged every beer in the comp... Otherwise it would just be a waste of everyones time. The more lenient judges would always be giving out the medals at the comp. A consensus is way better.

 

[AdamWiz]

The mini bos round attempts to correct this somewhat. All the beers that were judged as best to style are then evaluated side by side by a panel of judges. at this point all these beers should be 'to style'. They are judging which beers are exceptional. To just give medals based on scores would be fine if the same judging pair judged every beer in the comp... Otherwise it would just be a waste of everyones time. The more lenient judges would always be giving out the medals at the comp. A consensus is way better.

Now this makes sense, and I think I am on board with the mini-BOS. Since some judges are going to be more lenient than others, without the mini-BOS the winners would always be just whoever got judged by the easier judges. So the first judging and scoring weeds out the not-to-style entries and narrows things down to where the most experienced judges have a more reasonable number of beers to judge for best of category and best of show. Since every beer that gets to them has already been determined to be to style, they can just focus on which beers are the most exceptional overall. I get it now, makes sense. On the other hand, this also kind of explains my earlier observation that certain subcategories seem to always beat out other subcategories they are grouped with( Alts usually beating Cali commons, Kolschs usually beating cream ales, ESBs usually beating standard/ordinary bitters, etc.) Since the mini-BOS judges aren't judging and scoring to style, it tends to come down to the more liked/respected style winning. But really there is no way to make a beer judging of so many entries totally objective, I agree now that mini-BOS is probably the best way to make things as fair as possible.

 

[AdamWiz]

Funny thing - I was just looking at my scoresheets again, and the OP of this thread (Mills) actually judged 2 of my entries. And on both entries, his score was higher than the other judge - thanks Mills.

 

[jdrowell15]

From what I've been learning in the BJCP prep course I'm currently taking. I'm pretty sure they still judge to style. And not judge one beer against another. They are looking for the exceptional beers in their respective styles, not exceptional beers compared to the other beers. Though unfortunately I'm sure this happens, but it isn't how it should be done. The style guidelines, along with many other rules/regulations, are there to help remove subjectivity. Subjectivity that is bound to happen(though it shouldn't) when one judge enjoys Alt beers more then Cali Common.

 

[jdrowell15]

Experienced and well trained judges have the style guidelines memorized and know what a beer should taste like when they drink it. I've learned, and already find myself doing this, that when they taste a beer they almost immediately have a final score in their minds. The judging sheet is just to give the brewer the reason for the score and the constructive feedback most brewers are looking for.

By the way, I'm really enjoying this convo. Just hope I'm not pissing anyone off.

 

[AdamWiz]

By the way, I'm really enjoying this convo. Just hope I'm not pissing anyone off.

I'm finding this convo to be quite enlightening also. And no, you're not pissing anyone off - not me anyway. Some people get a little sensitive on this site, but we should all remember that differing viewpoints are a valuable thing. If everyone agreed with me, I would have no reason to come here. I just hope I'm not coming off as a whiner on this thread, like "boo hoo, my beers aren't judged fairly" or something. I'm just trying to understand the process better, and this thread has definitely helped with that.

 

[mors]

In the mini bos rounds each beer is still evaluated to it's specific substyle. They are also evaluated against each other. They have to be so you can determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd. They basically decide which beers are more exceptional to their specific substyle. Sure some people are more bias towards styles with stronger flavors etc... They shouldn't... But they're human. That's why it's done in groups to try and curb that. Even then a strong personality can dominate....again humans... This might not be the best way to judge a comp... But it's pretty much agreed on to be the best so far.

Jdrowell15? You in Fred's class?

 

[jdrowell15]

Yep, I'm in Fred's class.

Maybe we can say it's all just semantics now? LOL

But i can't help myself, enjoying the convo to much.

The beers are given a placing relative to each other, but are they evaluated to each other? They shouldn't be both evaluated to the style and evaluated(but that depends on how u describe evaluation, semantics!) to each other. How exceptional they are is their evaluation to that style. From there it's just their degree of exceptionabilty(if that's a word), not their comparison to the other beers.

Wow, now my head is really hurting! Haha

 

[mors]

no in a competition beers have to be evaluated against each other... they are competing. You have to decide which beers are best examples of their style. You're not going... I like beer A better than beer B. You're going beer A is a better Bock than beer B is a doppelbock.

I'm in Fred's class as well (Dan here)

 

[jdrowell15]

YES! That's exactly it! Thank you! I knew we were trying to say the same thing. Just couldn't figure out the best way to say it without contradicting myself at the same time. Lol

This is Jesse. Not that we really know people's names in the class. Lol

 

[AdamWiz]

After all my earlier ranting, I thought I should post to let people know that I did eventually get my medals, Jay got them to me. I just hope I'm not blacklisted from future comps - they didn't take too kindly to my complaints. I mean, I get that the people running the comp. volunteered their time and were not paid. But that doesn't mean they should be above fixing a problem when it is brought to their attention. But in the end, Jay made it right for me. I just wanted to give credit where it was due.

 

[mlyday]

Im still kind of ticked off. They may have volunteered their time, but we PAID to enter the competition, so we have a right to want what we paid for. Simple as that.

 

[AdamWiz]

Im still kind of ticked off. They may have volunteered their time, but we PAID to enter the competition, so we have a right to want what we paid for. Simple as that.

Amen, brother. That was my main gripe, the fact that I was treated like I was some sort of a**hole for having the nerve to complain that I didn't get the meadls I earned. All I kept hearing was about how they were volunteers, so we should all feel sorry for them that they had to spend so much time on the competition. But as I said before, they didn't put on the comp to do me a favor - they did it because they wanted to. So if you're going to volunteer to run a huge competition, be prepared to do it right, and be prepared to fix any issues that come up. Like you said, we PAID to enter, we have a right to get what we earned. But it was as if they couldn't believe that I actually cared about not getting my medals, like I was somehow out of line. And I'll admit, I was less than subtle in my later remarks to them - but that was after 2 weeks of basically being ignored and blown off. It became apparent to me that I had to rattle some cages to get a response. Funny thing, 2 weeks of emails with no response - but within 5 minuites of posting an angry message on their facebook page I was being scolded for daring to say anything about the sacred volunteers. But hey, it got me my medals. I just kind of feel bad that's what it took.

 

[mors]

I think you're both being little crybabies. They acted like you were being ******** because you were. I get that you were excited to see your results and get your medals. When they use the 'excuse' that they are volunteers it's not to avoid correcting issues/mistakes. It was because you were going ape **** not even a week after the competition. Volunteers donate time. Getting medals and results posted takes time. Volunteers also have real jobs that they have to do. The volunteering takes place in their free time. They are unlikely to spend every moment of their free time doing things for this competition. Thus there is only so quick this stuff can go. I certainly felt everything was done i a timely manner. Were there mistakes? Sure. Humans etc... Overall this was a very well run competition.

 

[thegleek]

this thread makes me lol. minds well be a flame war and we can pretend to be 14 year old kids again!