Homebrew grain bill vs Pro grain bill

[Lacasse93]

So I have been thinking about this a lot lately and really just want to see how other people think/approach it. When I design recipes for beers, I typically pick certain flavors I want to hit and then match it to a style I think would work. Once and awhile I will flip this if I am really in a mood for a specific style. I pick my grains to mimic flavors I want to see in the beer, often times having 5 or more different grains in a recipe each there to either add a flavor or body/head stability. When I look at pro brewers and what their grain bills are, its usually AT MOST 4 grains (unless its some big barleywine or imperial stout). I have tried over and over to nail a NEIPA I like and that thing is loaded with various grains and then a local brewery will put one out and the can says "2-row, oats, dextrine" or something like that and its lightyears better than mine. I just do not get it.

Now I understand logistics of it. It does not make sense for a commercial brewer to have a ton of different grains around to use only a little bit at a time where us homebrewers do have that luxury(?). So what am I missing? Am I over complicating things? I know one of my big problems is being unable to control fermentation temp but I have gotten better at only brewing certain styles and certain season and rarely miss my desired temps by more than a couple degrees (Fahrenheit). I am really trying to nail down technique and I am consistently hitting numbers and often produce beers I like a lot but this grain bill thing has got me second guessing. Any feedback would be appreciated thanks!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Fermentation temp control could very well be your hurdle, but maybe you are using too many grains. Too many colors of paint just makes a muddy brown.

This past week I've been reading the "Averagely Perfect" threads over at the BeerAdvocate forum. Very interesting to see the different theories people have in creating recipes.

Here's the NEIPA summary.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...northeast-ipa-how-we-got-there-thread.607751/

 

[Lacasse93]

I just started going through it and it is definitely interesting. I am pretty confident in my ability to make great beer besides IPAs. I live in New England and there are so many great examples around that the standard is really high. The NEIPA style is what had me thinking about this because (like I said), I don't get how they develop so much flavor with so few ingredients. Is there any chance its quality of malt selection? I typically have access to Rahr 2-row. Maybe a more "craft" or terroir driven malt could be at play?

 

[kevin58]

Commercial brewers keep a keen eye on costs. Keeping a lot of specialty grains in storage that are used only for one or two of their products is costly. You are partly correct in assuming commercial brewers have better access to ingredients. But being able to brew well is why many are doing it commercially has a lot to do with it too.

 

[Sammy86]

Have to remember also commercial breweries are many times using their own yeasts as well...they aren't playing around with US-05 or London Ale III. They have their own proprietary yeasts, and know how to use them.

One other thing that comes to mind is water chemistry. These guys have their profiles down and know what adjustments to make if any at all.

 

[bracconiere]

hmm, when you say different grains, do you mean different grains? because it's easier to cook with a single flavor. just roasted/toasted/malted diferently.....it's easy to tie it together....

 

[Lacasse93]

The yeast point is an interesting one and definitely annoying to deal with. Any clones you see always (and obviously) have yeast which is accessible to us. I have only toyed around with pitching dregs of commercial breweries sour beer. Maybe propping up some yeast from commercial breweries to see if that makes a difference?

 

[McKnuckle]

I think of it like ice cream. Some people want chips, nuts, swirls, fudge, crunchy bits, and other random stuff in their ice cream. Never mind that there's a vanilla or chocolate base, which gets overshadowed - you can barely taste it sometimes.

In contrast, take a really amazing pure vanilla or chocolate ice cream, and it's heaven.

Same thing for grains. A 100% pilsner brewed with extreme care and served super fresh is awesome. Of course you can add a couple/few more things, but there's a limit before flavors get muddled, unless you discover a really special combination that is more than the sum of its parts.

Key to this is great selection and care of your ingredients. That same pilsner handled roughly can be bland, dull, or oxidized. Multiple specialty grains can mask that, which for some brewers may be appealing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Can You Brew It is dedicated to homebrew cloning your favorite commercial beers ..."

The podcast ended in 2012, but when I was looking into clone recipes, I found various episodes had helpful tips/techniques. If I was interested in a speicific amber ale, I'd listen to episodes on similar ambers, ...

 

[bwible]

When I look at pro brewers and what their grain bills are, its usually AT MOST 4 grains (unless its some big barleywine or imperial stout). I have tried over and over to nail a NEIPA I like and that thing is loaded with various grains and then a local brewery will put one out and the can says "2-row, oats, dextrine" or something like that and its lightyears better than mine. I just do not get it.

Pro breweries and big breweries also might not be listing everything they use. I don’t think there is any legal requirement that they have to tell you every type of grain and every type of hops in their recipe and what yeast they use.

That said, many breweries are open with their information while some others not so much. I think they would be less likely to give you all the information about their best beers or anything that is selling very well and is hugely popular. Why would they sabotage themselves?

 

[Dancy]

That said, many breweries are open with their information while some others not so much. I think they would be less likely to give you all the information about their best beers or anything that is selling very well and is hugely popular. Why would they sabotage themselves?

My question may be very naive but are there really SO many home brewers that a commercial brewery is sabotaging themselves by giving out their grain bill? I brew 5G batches pretty much for myself and I’m not in a club so I really don’t know. Also, I’d imagine home brewers (especially those brewing 10-20G) aren’t the best customers anyway. Thoughts?

 

[alan sabatke]

My question may be very naive but are there really SO many home brewers that a commercial brewery is sabotaging themselves by giving out their grain bill? I brew 5G batches pretty much for myself and I’m not in a club so I really don’t know. Also, I’d imagine home brewers (especially those brewing 10-20G) aren’t the best customers anyway. Thoughts?

Most of my batches are 10 to 15 gals, still learning the new sys, hopefully be happy with it soon! I go out of my way to hit every micro brew I can. Some brewers are very helpful in discussing the brews, often will share yeast, but I have yet to have a brewer share recipes with me, dont even ask anymore. I am lucky to have a good micro brew 3 miles away, Im in there often! 4 taps in my basement for when Im home!

 

[nwhall3]

Late to the party here, but my $.02 as a former, avid homebrewer and current pro brewer, albeit on a smaller scale (7 BBL).

A couple of points others have already made stand out:

• breweries aim to use the fewest number of varieties of grain for economic reasons
• temperature control is paramount for stepping up your brewing game
• Water chemistry is also highly important for improving your brews, and I'd say this is especially true of NEIPAs

To this I would add--specifically for NEIPAs, as they're highly susceptible to oxidation--that controlling oxygen ingress is VERY important. A couple of things that we do that are more challenging (though not impossible) on a homebrew scale:

• Whirlpool at lower temperatures (I prefer 185, but some do lower)
• Dry-hop in two separate additions--one towards the end of fermentation, one after terminal gravity is reached--while pushing CO2 into the fermenter so as to prevent oxygen ingress
• Burst CO2 through the base of the fermenter ~12 hours after dry hop in order to agitate the wort/beer
• Low 02 transfer; we use a pump during transfer, but also push with CO2 on low psi into a CO2-purged brite
• I actually prefer a slightly more complex grain bill for NEIPAs, relatively speaking; as you mentioned, while most beers I brew have at most 3 types of grain, our NEIPAs have pilsner, vienna, flaked oats, and flaked white wheat (plus acidulated for pH)

I've had VERY good homebrewed NEIPAs (also very bad, but that's true of any style). Just keep doing research and experimenting.

I HIGHLY recommend Scott Janish's "The New IPA" for research purposes, for what it's worth. Great book, and really upped my NEIPA game.

(FWIW, though, my personal preference leans towards pilsners and old-school IPAs/pale ales, but that's probably for another thread...)

 

[Velnerj]

I'm not sure why you're caught up on the grain bill in a neipa... Doesn't most of the flavor come from the hops? Usually they are so overpowering you can't taste the grain.

Instead you should be shooting for a grain bill that creates that pillowy mouthfeel (and perhaps "orange juice" like color) along with proper fermentation practices and reduction of oxygen ingress as others have noted.

As far as I'm concerned flavor is hop driven...

 

[nwhall3]

I'm not sure why you're caught up on the grain bill in a neipa... Doesn't most of the flavor come from the hops? Usually they are so overpowering you can't taste the grain.

Instead you should be shooting for a grain bill that creates that pillowy mouthfeel (and perhaps "orange juice" like color) along with proper fermentation practices and reduction of oxygen ingress as others have noted.

As far as I'm concerned flavor is hop driven...

Not trying to be a contrarian at all, but I think grain plays a big role (yes, even in NEIPAs!) regarding flavor and mouthfeel. Grain obviously plays a big role in terms of flavor in barleywines, any stout, pilsners, etc, but even in NEIPAs--which are admittedly more hop-driven--grain plays a role. I think you'd be remiss to ignore one of the main components of the beer for any style.

After all, if grain were unimportant we'd just add sugar as the fermentable, right? It's cheaper!

 

[cmac62]

For my taste, simple is often better. I don't know what you get out 8 oz Cara Aroma, or any of the other "specialty grains" in a 10 + lbs of grain. I understand using some for color, but really not sure about using 4 or 5 different malts and how much they really add to the beer. Please explain.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Odds are it's oxygen. Both hot side and cold side. Using the exact same process, my 5 gallon homebrew system vs 1/2bbl pilot vs my old 10bbl vs 15bbl vs 30bbl show progressively more expressive malt character throughout the entire process. Larger systems by simple geometry see less exposure to oxygen during the brewday than smaller systems, even in systems not designed as explicitly low oxygen.

And cold side is critical as well. Even very basic homebrew systems can make progress with cold side (ex- do not ever cold crash unless at minimum using a CO2- inflated balloon to apply positive pressure). But the access to unitanks and carb stones make worlds of difference.

Depending on exact process, as soon as fermentation is almost done commercial fermenters are sealed up, put under pressure (typically spunded from the very end of fermentation) and NEVER opened, unless under positive CO2 pressure, until packaging- ie at the canning/bottling fill head after fill for the instant before the cap goes on.

Using gas sparging to carbonate is the commercial standard and is very fast (think minutes or hours isntead of days or weeks), but also has the added benefit of stripping out dissolved oxygen even with CO2's poor purity levels. Force carbing done by homebrewers leaves all the O2 contamination in your CO2 supply in the finished beer.

In almost all cases, simple is better. A few percent of one or two specialty malts and the rest base malt, and that's it. My NEIPAs are all base malt (either 2 row or MO), wheat malt, flaked oats, and absolutely nothing else.

 

[madscientist451]

When I design recipes for beers, I typically pick certain flavors I want to hit and then match it to a style I think would work.
When I look at pro brewers and what their grain bills are, its usually AT MOST 4 grains (unless its some big barleywine or imperial stout). I have tried over and over to nail a NEIPA I like and that thing is loaded with various grains and then a local brewery will put one out and the can says "2-row, oats, dextrine" or something like that and its lightyears better than mine. I just do not get it.

So what am I missing? Am I over complicating things?
I know one of my big problems is being unable to control fermentation temp but I have gotten better at only brewing certain styles and certain season and rarely miss my desired temps by more than a couple degrees (Fahrenheit).
Any feedback would be appreciated thanks!

Yes, you are making your brewing too complicated.
Focus on one thing at a time.
Want to brew good NEIPAs? Keep your beer away from oxygen by fermenting in a keg and doing a closed transfer.
There are lots of established recipes that have been tweaked and taste tested, try using those and when you can nail it, then go forward with your own recipes.
Just because pro brewers use simple malt bills doesn't mean you have to, they are brewing for profit, you aren't. Having said that, some of my best homebrews used very simple malt bills.
Get your recipes, equipment and methods dialed in and you can make beer better than commercial breweries serve.

 

[eric19312]

My less complex grain bills are pretty much always better than more complex grain bills. 100% base malt can be great. I will frequently mix two base malts rather than add specialty malts.

but my thinking is pro brewers that have pull are focusing on the quality of their malts at least as much as the ratios in their recipes. Getting good quality base malt is probably more important in these “simple” grain bills than getting precise flavor contributions from complicated recipes.