Homebrew and money

[phissionkorps]

I don't understand why people say it's hard to even break even. I'm sure if you put thousands into your set up, then I can see that. However, I have the basic startup kit + MLT + wort chiller. All of total was about $173 (including shipping for 2 of the things). If you go out and buy beer, anything decent is at least $1 per bottle. Now that I harvest yeast, buy hops in lbs, and do AG, my cost per batch is about $20, or 37 cents per bottle, saving me $33 minimum over the cost of buying 53 bottles of beer at the store. Once I start buying grain in bulk, it will even further decrease the cost. Sure, I'll have to buy a barley crusher first, but that will be paid for in a few batches compared to going out and buying beer at the store.

 

[Kplum]

I actually am on the opposite side of the spectrum. I have only been brewing for about 2 weeks, but I didnt get into this hobby to save money. It seems that my friends and I are all married, its getting harder to get together, yadda, yadda, yadda. I started thinking it would be fun to do. I would have something to show for my efforts. Plus its a great time to get some buds together talk about everything/nothing.. Plus we get to enjoy the fruits of our labor.. Is it cost effective? Not for us right now.. Be sure have a helluva time doing it..

 

[The Pol]

Oh, I think everyone here agrees that it is "possible" to break even or save money by brewing your own beer. BUT, in reality, most of us like toys and tweaking and building... so the reality of it is that 90% of us are way in the hole.
It is a hobby, not a way to save money for the vast majority, so $$$ dont matter so much. I will never ever make back all that I have spent!

 

[Homercidal]

Well, I don't save money, but I could if I wanted to. Frankly, I don't brew enough. I am all for saving money on equipment, and will likely never spend a dine on anythign that I couldn't make myself.

However, I am not yet to AG, so the kits are a bit more $$, and I still cannot stop buying expensive beer at the store. Not insanely expensive beers, but the more expensive craft brews. There are just too many styles I gotta try!!

However, if there are one or two styles that you really, really like, and you forego trying all the others, and you make them yourself using AG methods, you will surely save money. A reasonable amount of money too.

However, however, good luck just drinking those couple of styles.

Oh, yes, all this assuming you are bottling with free bottles. If you are kegging, then it will take a WHILE to break even. (But it's nice to walk up to your kegerator and pour out a nice glass of IPA, or whatever your heart desires!)

 

[VatorMan]

Those people saying they are saving $$$ brewing are not including labor.
Rule #1-Pay yourself first. By the time you add all the time sterilizing,bottling, and brewing, it will always be cheaper to buy store bought beer.

 

[Homercidal]

Those people saying they are saving $$$ brewing are not including labor.
Rule #1-Pay yourself first. By the time you add all the time sterilizing,bottling, and brewing, it will always be cheaper to buy store bought beer.

Ah, but if you enjoy it as a hobby, then the cost can be a non-factor. Like how much does fishing cost if you spend 5 hours on the lake? WHO CARES?

 

[GroovePuppy]

Ah, but if you enjoy it as a hobby, then the cost can be a non-factor. Like how much does fishing cost if you spend 5 hours on the lake? WHO CARES?

Agreed, but I think that was the point of the thread. I plan to build a fermentation cabinet for next summer that I probably don't need and will certainly never recoup the costs on. What I like about homebrewing is that even the processes and equipment can be homebrewed.

 

[VatorMan]

Ah, but if you enjoy it as a hobby, then the cost can be a non-factor. Like how much does fishing cost if you spend 5 hours on the lake? WHO CARES?

Title of the thread was Homebrew and money. Just fitting my answer based on the question. Sounds like the OP just wants really cheap beer IMHO.

 

[phissionkorps]

I don't get it. Why would you "pay yourself first"? Do you get paid for watching TV? Do you get paid for golfing? Those are fun things too. You don't get paid for cooking dinner or vacuuming, etc either. Most people can't set their own work hours, so it's not like they would be working 16 hour days if they weren't brewing.

 

[iamjonsharp]

I rarely buy commercial beer, maybe just $10-20 buck a month on it. Most microbrew sixers go for about 10 bucks...yikes! Spending 20-25 bucks to make 2 cases is way cheaper than buying it.

 

[VatorMan]

I don't get it. Why would you "pay yourself first"? Do you get paid for watching TV? Do you get paid for golfing? Those are fun things too. You don't get paid for cooking dinner or vacuuming, etc either. Most people can't set their own work hours, so it's not like they would be working 16 hour days if they weren't brewing.

Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.

 

[GroovePuppy]

Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.

Also this applies if you're trying to claim you can save money by homebrewing. As I said a few posts back you'd be better taking a job for those 10 hours a month and buying beer. You'd have money left over for chips too that way!

 

[phissionkorps]

Do you know of anywhere that will hire you for 10 hours a month and lets you set your own schedule? Me neither, so you don't really need to include.

Even if I did consider my labor, every time I brew I probably only do an actual hours worth of work. The things that take the biggest time (boil, mash), I'm sitting in the other room studying. If I paid myself $20 (the cost of the batch) for that 1 hour of labor, I'm still saving at least $13 over store bought. Now of course everyone will say "oh but you didn't consider electricity and water!". My water is $15/month, and electric is about $80/month. I only brew 2 times or so a month, so it probably costs me $6 combined, tops.
Also, since it is a hobby, I think it saving money is just a nice benefit. As a hobby, the "you need to pay yourself" argument has no place in the cost analysis, especially since chances are, you don't work in a brewery. Cooking dinner is work, and is cheaper than going out, but you don't consider "paying yourself" chefs wages for it do you? You don't "pay yourself" the salary and gov't equivalent benefits for taking your garbage out do you?

 

[imaguitargod]

Let's see...it cost me $40 to brew and bottle (got the bottles for free and caps for free too)....I got the equivilent of 53 bottles of beer....that's roughtly, $0.75 a bottle...now factor in what I usually spend per beer bottle...let's put it at an average of $2.50 a bottle...so I'm saving $1.75 a beer....even if I factor in my time, I'm still saving a hell of alot of money.

 

[Homercidal]

Again, the title of the thread is Homebrew and money. Not homebrew for fun. Anything I do that I consider work I pay myself first. So in that context if I considered brewing work, I would want to be paid.

Yes, and I see that, but my post clearly stated, "...but if you enjoy it as a hobby...". By that I meant to say that it doesn't really count if you enjoy doing it.

Just like I don't include the time that I spend #@%king the wife, because if I compared that to the cost of having to buy it on the street, I'd realize that It's actually costing me much more, and I'm likely getting less quality goods! (Looks behind me to see if she's reading this...)

 

[Dagatris]

Just like I don't include the time that I spend #@%king the wife, because if I compared that to the cost of having to buy it on the street, I'd realize that It's actually costing me much more, and I'm likely getting less quality goods! (Looks behind me to see if she's reading this...)

HA, freakin awesome!!

 

[GroovePuppy]

Do you know of anywhere that will hire you for 10 hours a month and lets you set your own schedule? Me neither, so you don't really need to include.

I believe I suggested bagging groceries!

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't understand why people say it's hard to even break even. I'm sure if you put thousands into your set up, then I can see that. However, I have the basic startup kit + MLT + wort chiller. All of total was about $173 (including shipping for 2 of the things). If you go out and buy beer, anything decent is at least $1 per bottle. Now that I harvest yeast, buy hops in lbs, and do AG, my cost per batch is about $20, or 37 cents per bottle, saving me $33 minimum over the cost of buying 53 bottles of beer at the store. Once I start buying grain in bulk, it will even further decrease the cost. Sure, I'll have to buy a barley crusher first, but that will be paid for in a few batches compared to going out and buying beer at the store.

Oh jeezus Fing Christ... I can't believe I have just been pulled into yet another economics of homebrewing thread.

OP - "When I first started homebrewing or even before I started I wanted one of my main reasons to start brewing to be money. I wanted to save on beer".

The goal was to homebrew to save money on beer. To that end, ultimate failure ensues. As soon as you disregard the labor due to "it's fun", you're creating a strawman. No one said it wasn't fun but if you're treat the question as a pure economic one, as the OP suggests, then no, you can't break even or save money unless you consider yourself worth less than minimum wage.

Think of the question this way (in order to remove the obvious "homebrewing is fun" bias that we all have);

Your neighbor comes over because he caught you homebrewing and says.."I hate cooking and I don't really want another hobby but I'd like to save money on my monthly beer habit. Will I save money by homebrewing?". You should reply, "no, take a few more hours down at the slaughterhouse Joe, this homebrewing thing is pretty labor intensive".

 

[mattmcl]

I started brewing 20 years ago for two reasons- I was underage, and it was cheaper. The economics have stayed the same, despite the price increase in hops. Brew your own, and you can drink Guinness for the price of Old Milwaukee. In 20 years, I can't think of anything I've added to my initial $80 in equipment except three glass carboys that I got used for $5 each. I've replaced tubing and racking canes, but that's about it.

I'm real close to moving to AG via brew in a bag because of the economics and simplicity, and I've got a house rather than a dorm room and hot plate.

Sure, I love the hobby, but if it cost MORE than buying beer I wouldn't do it.

 

[MrNate]

I don't know that I really enjoy brewing or that I'm saving all that much if at all. I just prefer to do things myself, make things myself, build things myself, and generally surround myself with the fruits of my own labor.

In short, I don't like beer nearly as much as I like homemade beer, so I guess I'll keep on brewing.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd love to see a complete cost breakdown. Skip the equipment investment in your case.

Ingredients per batch.
Energy Cost to heat.
Water to chill.
Time spent planning.
Time spent brewing.
Time spent testing and bottling.

These are the costs of brewing. If you discount any one of them because you gain some immeasurable value for some other reason, it's a incomplete analysis.

 

[bob1852]

These are the costs of brewing. If you discount any one of them because you gain some immeasurable value for some other reason, it's a incomplete analysis.

not too mention gas to and from LHBS, hotel costs after SWMBO kicks you out of the house for your obsession, etc...

 

[phissionkorps]

I'd love to see a complete cost breakdown. Skip the equipment investment in your case.

Ingredients per batch.
Energy Cost to heat.
Water to chill.
Time spent planning.
Time spent brewing.
Time spent testing and bottling.

Well as I stated on the last page:

Even if I did consider my labor, every time I brew I probably only do an actual hours worth of work. The things that take the biggest time (boil, mash), I'm sitting in the other room studying. If I paid myself $20 (the cost of the batch) for that 1 hour of labor, I'm still saving at least $13 over store bought. Now of course everyone will say "oh but you didn't consider electricity and water!". My water is $15/month, and electric is about $80/month. I only brew 2 times or so a month, so it probably costs me $6 combined, tops.

So we're looking at at about $44 per batch tops for something less expensive and higher quality, which serves to just make it even less expensive comparatively. The $6 for electricity and water to brew 2 or so batches is a very, very liberal estimate as well, seeing as 99% of that water is taken up by showers/dishwasher/laundry, and 99% of the electricity is taken up by fridge, oven, laundry, dishwasher, computer, etc. As I've said before, you might be able to get some Pearl or Lost Lake for cheaper than you can brew, but who wants to drink that? I don't drink that, so you can't bring that up as a point in your defense....I'm not going to drink horse piss because it's cheaper. Last time I checked anyway, after taxes, even PBR is $12 for a 12pk. The point of the argument is, you can drink much higher quality stuff for the cost of horrible beer that you otherwise wouldn't be drinking anyway.

The argument that you need to "pay yourself" is totally irrelevant for a multitude of reasons. Like I've said multiple times, you don't "pay yourself" for cooking dinner as opposed to going out. You don't "pay yourself" to cut the lawn as opposed to hiring someone to do it. But hey, since there is some issue with seeing that it is asinine to apply that concept to brewing only and not to everything else, I'll play. I'm med a student, so I don't have a job. Since I'm not otherwise employed, I won't be making any money regardless. I guess technically I could go sack groceries, but even with that, you can't set your own schedule for whenever you want, not working for weeks, then just showing up for 2 hours, etc. The flexibility just isn't there. Not to mention, say you have a PhD and you teach, so you work set hours. Are you going to go sack groceries? I don't think so. You're time is more valuable than that if you're that accomplished. Now I'm doing something more important; I sacked groceries when I was 15.

I can tell no matter what, this is just going to get further into the minutae. Someone is just going to be complaining to consider more and more and more, even when it is totally irrelevant. It's like telling a brewery they aren't calculating the "real" cost because they aren't taking into account the everchanging mental state of every single one of their employees, which at times decreases productivity and costs them more than accounted for, or that since they buy their grain in massive bulk, some of it is really bug parts and other non-grain things that they really need to figure out the exact percentage of to know how much it's really costing them. Use your imagination.

 

[zman]

This thread reminds me of a Cost Accounting class that I took back when I thought I had a desire to be an accountant (many, many years ago) There is this thing called a "cost of goods sold statement" We had to calculate every thing that went into making a pair of Jeans, and I mean just about every possible variable that would exist in such a factory. Can someone say YAWN!!!!!!! I like to think that I am saving money as opposed to buying fine crafted micros. I financed a lot of my equipment via free or already spent money. I sold Items on craigslist that I got for free (ie furniture) and Items that I bought and no longer (computer supplies and parts) So it was either free (to me) or money that was already spent. It is also an investment in myself. I do not pay myself to study computers (I am an IT guy) but the potential benefit for a promotion or better paying job is possible. But in all seriousness it is a hobby and the potential to make good beer for cheaper than you would pay in a store is there. RDWHAHB!!!

That's all folks

 

[Bobby_M]

If these series of brewing economics threads have taught me anything it's that some people understand accounting and some people know just enough to rationalize their choices. The further problem is that all of us enjoy the hobby so much that we can't set that joy aside when considering literal facts.

In order to understand the actual cost, especially for those who claim they wouldn't be working anyway, is to replace the activity you love with one you think sucks. Imagine if in order to make beer, you had to hand wash dirty underwear for the same amount of time it takes to brew. Another way of trying to figure the personal cost of your time is to think about the job you could get, if you wanted it, right now.

I have never argued against the merit of brewing beer, far from it. I think it might be my favorite hobby and I beg people to learn about brewing. But I will never concede that brewing your own is a way of getting beer cheaper if that is one's only goal.

Anyone can twist the numbers, generalize, and complain that I'm nit picking at it but if you really want to solve the buy or brew, build or buy, inhouse or outsource problems in the real world, that's just how it's done.

Brianthebrewer, the main point is that I really hope you enjoy the process because it is obviously the one priceless reward in it. Think about it. I adamantly believe this is costing me a fortune and I still love it.

 

[Jumbo82]

I probably shouldn't even bother posting, but its hard to resist.

Everybody's time has value. When you decide to sit on the back porch and drink a beer, you have done a subconscious cost-benefit analysis and valued your relaxation time as more valuable than that same amount of time spent doing chores (or whatever else you could be doing). The way economists are able to compare these things is to attach a dollar value to them.

When you go out and mow your lawn, you don't pay yourself to do it. Does this mean it cost you nothing? No. If someone offered to mow your lawn for the entire year for $1, most people would accept this offer (For the sake of argument, this person will be using your lawnmower and gas, so its just their labor that you are buying). But why would you spend a dollar when you were doing it for free before? Its because your time DOES have value. Its an inescapable conclusion.

Now back to beer. Many of us consider homebrew better than commercial stuff, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Lets make it one. Say you could brew your favorite commercial beer for $0.50 a bottle. Or you could buy it from the store for $1.50 a bottle. And lets just say it takes you 5 hours to make 50 bottles. Thats one hour for 10 bottles. Each bottle you brew saves you $1, so its $10/hr for your labor. Many people would choose to brew their own under these condition, but many would also rather go golfing or skiing in their spare time and just shell out the money for the beer. I know this is a simplified example, but it illustrates my point.

Alright, thats my two cents (actually closer to $5 of my time). I hope this helps some of you.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

I probably shouldn't even bother posting, but its hard to resist.

Everybody's time has value. When you decide to sit on the back porch and drink a beer, you have done a subconscious cost-benefit analysis and valued your relaxation time as more valuable than that same amount of time spent doing chores (or whatever else you could be doing). The way economists are able to compare these things is to attach a dollar value to them.

When you go out and mow your lawn, you don't pay yourself to do it. Does this mean it cost you nothing? No. If someone offered to mow your lawn for the entire year for $1, most people would accept this offer (For the sake of argument, this person will be using your lawnmower and gas, so its just their labor that you are buying). But why would you spend a dollar when you were doing it for free before? Its because your time DOES have value. Its an inescapable conclusion.

Now back to beer. Many of us consider homebrew better than commercial stuff, so its not an apples to apples comparison. Lets make it one. Say you could brew your favorite commercial beer for $0.50 a bottle. Or you could buy it from the store for $1.50 a bottle. And lets just say it takes you 5 hours to make 50 bottles. Thats one hour for 10 bottles. Each bottle you brew saves you $1, so its $10/hr for your labor. Many people would choose to brew their own under these condition, but many would also rather go golfing or skiing in their spare time and just shell out the money for the beer. I know this is a simplified example, but it illustrates my point.

Alright, thats my two cents (actually closer to $5 of my time). I hope this helps some of you.

Im at work right now and im getting paid to read your post...I love it

 

[Nerro]

The money you've spent on brewgear has been spent on more than just beer, it's been spent on a lasting and worthwile hobby. You have gained more from spending it than you would just spending it on beer in the liquor store. Any money you spend less on beer from the store now is just gravy.

 

[VatorMan]

Boy oh boy has this thread grown legs.:rockin:

I see that some understand where I come from. I used to use a similar argument from people that lived a long way from work. My analogy:

If I call you on a Saturday morning to drive to work-how much would you charge? Most would not drive to work for less that $50 a day. I said that is what you think your time is worth driving EVERY day. If you wanted to live closer, you could pay an extra $200 a week and make $$$. Time is money. Hell, this post cost me $10.:fro:

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Boy oh boy has this thread grown legs.:rockin:

I see that some understand where I come from. I used to use a similar argument from people that lived a long way from work. My analogy:

If I call you on a Saturday morning to drive to work-how much would you charge? Most would not drive to work for less that $50 a day. I said that is what you think your time is worth driving EVERY day. If you wanted to live closer, you could pay an extra $200 a week and make $$$. Time is money. Hell, this post cost me $10.:fro:

Hahahahahahaha

Im getting paid right now at work to type this