home brewer laws

[mattd2]

...You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous...

What is the definition used by CFR? Sorry if it has been said already, I just can't find it.

 

[MaxStout]

What is the definition used by CFR? Sorry if it has been said already, I just can't find it.

No problem. Here it is:

27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205
Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in § 25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

Source

 

[mattd2]

No problem. Here it is:

27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205
Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in § 25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

Source

Sorry, i meant what is the definition of household as used by CFR? From you same source (Cornell)

People living together in one dwelling, who may or may not be related.

sourec - http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/household

I have seen this extended to cover hostile situations being not termed a household even though it technically falls under the above

 

[MaxStout]

I think the key term is "adult(s) residing in..." (subd. (1), (2))

 

[mattd2]

I think the key term is "adult(s) residing in..." (subd. (1), (2))

I think we are both on the same page:
Family setting = household
Flatting = household
Dorms /= household

 

[woozy]

But then there is this

A family living together. Those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family.

Although I think the people living in the same dwelling is probably the most appropriate. Still in all it seems to be saying "the people in your household can make be up to 100 gallons if you live alone or 200 gallons if there's two or more of you".

Actually it's that bit 25.207 I find unclear. Just what's the definition of a brewery and what's an owner? and it *almost* seems as this this is a separate issue from the beer you made. But I guess if you are a part owner of a brewery that means you made the beer. You can't just take 100 gallons home that someone else made and then make another 100 gallons at home (or elsewhere) yourself.

So I guess... I'm just fishing about trying to figure this out... If Joe and Fred, two single guys who live alone, like to meet up at Fred's house and make beer. Fred makes 150 gallons one year and Joe makes 50, but they split 'em even and Joe takes 100 home. Is everything hunky-dory? Legally speaking that is. Is Fred taxable for the extra 50 gallons? Joe reached his limit on what he can take from his brewery but he hasn't reached what he can brew. Can he brew another 50 gallons?

And what about gifts? Are we allowed to give beer away? Can Fred brew 300 gallons and give 100 to Steve and 100 to Stan. Are we allowed to recieve beer as gifts? Can Steve and Stan brew any beer after receiving 100 gallons for Fred?

 

[mattd2]

But then there is this

A family living together. Those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family.

Although I think the people living in the same dwelling is probably the most appropriate. Still in all it seems to be saying "the people in your household can make be up to 100 gallons if you live alone or 200 gallons if there's two or more of you".

Actually it's that bit 25.207 I find unclear. Just what's the definition of a brewery and what's an owner? and it *almost* seems as this this is a separate issue from the beer you made. But I guess if you are a part owner of a brewery that means you made the beer. You can't just take 100 gallons home that someone else made and then make another 100 gallons at home (or elsewhere) yourself.

So I guess... I'm just fishing about trying to figure this out... If Joe and Fred, two single guys who live alone, like to meet up at Fred's house and make beer. Fred makes 150 gallons one year and Joe makes 50, but they split 'em even and Joe takes 100 home. Is everything hunky-dory? Legally speaking that is. Is Fred taxable for the extra 50 gallons? Joe reached his limit on what he can take from his brewery but he hasn't reached what he can brew. Can he brew another 50 gallons?

And what about gifts? Are we allowed to give beer away? Can Fred brew 300 gallons and give 100 to Steve and 100 to Stan. Are we allowed to recieve beer as gifts? Can Steve and Stan brew any beer after receiving 100 gallons for Fred?

Most sources state that a family also need not be related.
You are confusing things with looking at 25.207 - that is about taking beer from a commercial brewery without paying tax. Basically it is the equivilant of a brewer saying he used the brewery to homebrew.

Remember that these regulations are not about homebrewing but about excemption from tax and licencing on beer produced by/for a household.

25.205 is the big one you are looking at as a homebrewer, and it doesn't say where th beer is made just that it is made for a household.

No Fred can not brew 300 gallons a year and gift 200 away and legally say it is ok, but if steve and stan brewed the beer with Fred for their respective households that would be ok.

 

[ACbrewer]

I have no misunderstanding about the CFR. The CFR does not "control the IRS," it provides a narrow exception to what is normally taxed and regulated by the ATF. For purposes of that exception, the CFR states a clear definition of "household," a term around which much of this tedious thread has turned. You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous. You (and a few others) are reading into something that just isn't there. "Erring on caution" means just stay within those defined parameters. It ain't rocket surgery.

Refer back the second paragraph of my previous post, as that explains how courts construe statutory law.

Sir your statement that the CFR does not 'control the IRS' makes no sense on the face of it. If the Combine Federal Registar - ie the Federal law doens't control the IRS ie give it form and function, what does?? ***Although I suppose sinced the CFR only covers about 60% of the laws it is plausable that IRS's controling legislation isn't part of the CFR***

Where my actual issue is that if you have 2 unrelated people renting an appartment (think of the people in the TV show Friends), when they file taxes, they'd never think of filing ajoint return, or as one as a dependant of the other.
Yet as Isearch for what a household is defined as, there is ample evidence that they should do just that. This includs IRS definitions (mentioned in a previous post). - and here is where my confusion with it is. Also remmeber TTB =IRS both are part of Treasury, one has more guns than auditors, the other has more auditors than guns, and neither is like when they show up anounced or not.


Section 25.207 does refer to a liscensed brewer. Infact under federal law, homebrewers aren't brewers nor do we have breweries as legally defined- from 25.11
"Brewer. Any person who brews beer (except a person who produces only beer exempt from tax under 26 U.S.C. 5053(e)) and any person who produces beer for sale.

Brewery. The land and buildings described in the Brewer's Notice, Form 5130.10, where beer is to be produced and packaged"
26 USC 5053(e) is basically a rehash of 25.205 from the CFR, so reading the definition of brewer - any person who brews beer except for a person who produces [only for personal use]
And I'm sure none of us has filed a Brewer's Notice on form 5130.10


But as to the OP's question, the hashout here seems to be that the brew limit is not imposed on the location of brew, but on each brewers domicle. So if 3 or more unrelated pepole share a house (single address point), they can make a total of 200 gallons regardless of where they make them. Conversly if 3 or more people who do not share a domicile but all gather at one place to brew to share equipment they could each brew up to their household limit (100/200)
Additionally it is probably better if they actually ferment at their residence, as doing it all at "Fred's" could get him in trouble. And in most cases he who puts in the yeast is the brewer, and is responsible for all elements of the process after that (ie any racking, additions and packaging).

One last thing for the OP, as you share equipment, besure to define who owns it, and how people will split it should the group disolve due to any reason (someone moves, fights, bankruptcy, etc).

 

[ntbritton]

Thank you ACbrewer your recomendation to the equipment. We have took some steps there. Treating it as a business transaction.

The problem i could see some people having in these situations is everyone in the group may not have the equipment to bottle or keg the beer in their respective homes. So the beer may sit in a carboy or fermentation bucket until it is kegged or bottled and then removed. I wonder how the law treats this scenario.

Because to your point each brewer can brew up to their limits if the have different households, and it should not matter where it is stored because through the process because that does not change who the brewer of that batch is.

If Fred was to keep an accurate brew log this could prove to be valuable in such a legal predicament i believe.

 

[ntbritton]

What is an "OP"?

 

[woozy]

OP-- original poster. The person who started this discussion and who had original concerns from which the general discussion may have (and in this case, most certainly has) deviated.

 

[GrogNerd]

What is an "OP"?

Original Post or Original Poster

Thread Starter

in this case, you

 

[woozy]

Well, my take of the law is that everyone can brew 100 gallons of beer. Makes no difference where; in one's home, in a field, on an airplane. And that makes sense.

And you can't abuse this law by making it a "family business"; no "I made 100 and my wife made 100 and our daughter made 100 and those 100 gallons leaving in a truck from the driveway were our son-in-laws and this batch in that 100 gallon fermentor was made by my sister-in-law and...". And that makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is that if you can brew in a plane, on a train, in a house, with a mouse, and each person can brew a 100 gallons then what's all this business about "households"? What does where you live have to do with the price of yeast?

And the answer to that is, of course, nothing; the law has nothing to do with where anybody lives. It's just that where people live has always been how we've kept tabs on folks and what familial units the have.

But I'm a post-modern urban guy and I'm used to homelessness, roommates, multiple families sharing units, those who don't enter the traditional concept of family, etc. I hear "households" and I want to know the dealio...

Okay, so the law's impartial. Limit applies to people sharing an address, end of story, what *else* could it mean and still be fair and impartial? Well, okay.... but I've got to feel a little sorry for poor Jim a few pages back. He moved into a house, discovered his roommates were all brewing beer at other places and going to the household limit, so he can't brew anything even though he never brewed any beer, no beer was being brewed at his house, and his roommates weren't sharing any of the beer with him.

 

[ACbrewer]

But I'm a post-modern urban guy and I'm used to homelessness, roommates, multiple families sharing units, those who don't enter the traditional concept of family, etc. I hear "households" and I want to know the dealio...

Okay, so the law's impartial. Limit applies to people sharing an address, end of story, what *else* could it mean and still be fair and impartial? Well, okay.... but I've got to feel a little sorry for poor Jim a few pages back. He moved into a house, discovered his roommates were all brewing beer at other places and going to the household limit, so he can't brew anything even though he never brewed any beer, no beer was being brewed at his house, and his roommates weren't sharing any of the beer with him.

Yeah I agree with you here especially since poor little Jim from several pages ago isn't sharing his tax returns with everyone in the address. But all the readings seem to be houshold=domicile address. Looks like if poor Jim is in some states, he will have to make mead or wine - but with no malt.

VA for instance goes with the feds and you can do 100/200 beer and 100/200 wine. MO however has a 100/200 alcoholic beverage (beer and wine are lumped together)

OP (ntbritton)- another note - All of my stuff, and most of what we have been talking about has been the specific Federal limits. The states may have more restrictive.

 

[ACbrewer]

Original Post or Original Poster

Thread Starter

in this case, you

I was thinking of posting this very comment.

 

[ntbritton]

I have been referring to the Federal Law as well. I think understanding this would be the most beneficial to everyone. Even if your not going to come close or worry about the law, its always good to understand it and to be well versed in such subject matters.

Thanks guys for clearing up the "OP" for me. I suspected that but did not want to assume, being some what new to the trade.

 

[mikescooling]

You know, no one has ever been busted for making over the allotted amount.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I wouldn't worry about it at all to be honest. I can't imagine anyone actually being prosecuted under this statute.

This.

I don't have a federal regulator walking around every time I brew. Also I don't think brewing up more than 100 Gallons is very easy for most folk, unless you're brewing every week or very large batches.

 

[woozy]

Right. Let's say that the OP, ntbritton, and his 2 buds brew 5 gallons every other week. That's 130 gallons a year which is pretty heavy duty. And although no-one's going to complain or call the cops, it's reasonable for the OP's peace of mind to want to know whether he is or is not willfully scoffing the law. Well, he can rest easy as he is not.

 

[mattd2]

...What doesn't make sense is that if you can brew in a plane, on a train, in a house, with a mouse, and each person can brew a 100 gallons then what's all this business about "households"? What does where you live have to do with the price of yeast?...

Because the term household is not meaning house, it is meaning "family". It is brewing beer for your family/household, i.e. for personal consumption. It is limiting the amount you can brew for personal consuption within some confined boundry. I guess because when they first brought this out at a federal level you had people saying that everyone would just be getting drunk on homebrew all day. So they said well then adults can only brew 100 gallons a year... and so on... just try follow what has happened in Alabama and the crazy admendments they tried to put on there state bill... same thing would have happened at a federal level too

 

[ntbritton]

So i actually called the Nebraska department number for this topic, and was told we really don't monitor or worry about how much you brew, just that you don't sell it. There is no Nebraska statue for volume, because its at the federal level, you would need to call them to understand what household refers to. So off i go to find that number.

I guess i assumed even the state guys would understand the federal statue that they fall under, but apparently i was wrong on that one.

 

[finsfan]

see, you called them and all they said was "we dont care how much you brew, just dont sell!" that is enough for me to conclude this is never monitored, but the sale of illegal alcohol is monitored by the ATF, so dont do that and you'll be fine!

 

[ntbritton]

Right on Finsfan. Its not that i really care, but i do like to crasp new understandings that this fine world has to offer us.

 

[finsfan]

well it is kinda important to know the legalities of it for people who do plan on brewing close to the "limit" or over, apparently they did not need to create a limit if they are not going to enforce it haha o well more brew for us! cheers

 

[ntbritton]

You are exactly right! I do plan to report back after i call the feds.

 

[finsfan]

haha im not sure i will ever say that last sentence, at least hopefully not!

 

[SoonerDoc]

If he never comes back, at least we can find his mugshot online to create "Free ntbritton!" T-shirts.

 

[ntbritton]

So lunch is over and i had a very informative interesting chat with the feds.

So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit.

Now the other catch is its based on "produced". So i asked what is the legal definition of produced? It is a finished product drinkable beer. So is the beer finished when its carbed or done fermenting. I did not think to ask. I would think carbed because it is not a finished product until it has been carbed.

So Fred could have his friends over and brew, ferment and keg or bottle, as long as it leaves before it is ready to drink it would not be considered produced. Now Fred has only "produced" what he gives away to family and friends.

Now at the end of the call they did ask for my name, and i politely declined to give that information. She was like ookkkaaaay. I figure if they need the number or metadata from the call, the NSA could provide that for them.

 

[woozy]

"If you walked out of your house right now and saw a zombie and a dog having a conversation, would you instantly believe in zombies and talking dogs? "

Weird buffer memory. *That* wasn't what I intended cut and paste! Try again:

"So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit. "

Okay, that's better.

Geez, now we're all confused again! Or I am! So can I go to someone else's house (or an open field) and brew a second hundred gallons? So, I can brew hundreds and hundreds of gallons as long as i do it in different places? (Actually, I guess that is consistent.) And we repeat the same questions over and over. well... I guess we'll never really know.

Maybe our mistake is in assuming that any-one, including the feds, actually knows either.

"Now at the end of the call they did ask for my name, and i politely declined to give that information. She was like ookkkaaaay."

I'm kind of reminded of the common variety garden poppy, Papaver somniferum. Growing or owning any part of this poppy except its seeds, which can not be sold for the purpose of cultivation, is illegal. But the feds don't *want* you to know that it is illegal. (If you know that it is illegal, then you will know that you can make opium from them, and if you know that you might do it.) Thus, if you go blithely ignorantly buying seeds from equally ignornant shop owners and growing pretty poppies the feds are happy even though you and the shop owner are both utterly unknowingly breaking the law. But the moment you start asking about the law or reading up on it, *then* you become a person of suspect.

Perhaps beer is the same way. 6 guys get together and brew 5 gallons of beer every week at Fred's house without any of them thinking there could possibly be anything wrong this, the feds are fine. But when one of the guys says "gee, I just realized that we're brewing, like, 250 gallons of beer a year? Is there some kind of legal limit? Maybe we should ask the Feds?"... it's at *that* moment the Fed's concern and radar go off. "If this guy's concerned then maybe we should keep an eye on him..."

 

[ACbrewer]

So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit.

Well that is very insteresting. The person you spoke with basically is saying 'where it is brewed/produced is the home that the limit is applied against.' The only reason I bring this up with the yeast pitching is that in VA, the person who PITCHES the yeast is the homebrewer, and presumably against his limit. Part of the reason for this is for BOP shops, alowing the shop owner to provide space and not go over limit.

It also seems there is a presumption by the federal person's response that you aren't going to transport much of it, but rather it is for personal consumption. Which makes sense, about 95 to 99% of the food I prepare is for eating by my household, and not for consumption by others away from my house (ie I don't run a restraunt/food cart out of my kitchen)

And the tax rates on beer is I think ~$18/barrel, or about $54/100 gallons, meaning each of us is stiff the feds of up to $54/year just in beer tax (not including a brewer's fees/taxes it pays as doing business). I think in the end that is 75% of what the Gov't (all levels) care about, getting $$$$ (or in the 2 case per batch of beer I make $)