Home Brew Club drunk problem

[ScottG58]

It really sounds like your member is in an alcoholic downward spiral. Happy drunks are a myth. It is a horrible disease that takes its toll on the alcoholic and those who are close to them. If he drinks like that and behaves poorly when drinking his other relationships are in a shambles.

If your member's behavior is a symptom of alcoholism, a home brew club cannot be a positive place for him to be. If he is an alcoholic, you can't make him stop. If he is an alcoholic, you cannot control him and make him slow down. With an alcoholic, every drink is "off to the races".

While you cannot control him, you can control your reaction to him. You do not owe the drunk your sanity.

If you are not close to this guy, distancing yourself and your club may be your best survival tactic. If you are close to him, Al Anon can help you develop some survival skills.

 

[passedpawn]

Don't confuse overconsumption with aggressive, obnoxious behavior. One happens easily in our hobby, and should be expected occasionally. The other is a sign of a personality problem leaking out. The latter isn't going to change IMO.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

this topic need a poll

 

[beersnblues]

Ditto ScottG58. If he is a friend then you should recognize that he has a serious illness and attempt to help him understand this. If he rejects your help or is meerly an acquaintance then I would get as far away from him as possible as he will only pull you down. Based on what has been presented, I don't think there is any doubt that he is an alcoholic. You need offer no explaination for expelling him from the club other than his deplorable behavior. I agree that the leadership of the club should apologize to the other club's members for the behavior.

 

[mattd2]

It really sounds like your member is in an alcoholic downward spiral. Happy drunks are a myth. It is a horrible disease that takes its toll on the alcoholic and those who are close to them. If he drinks like that and behaves poorly when drinking his other relationships are in a shambles.

If your member's behavior is a symptom of alcoholism, a home brew club cannot be a positive place for him to be. If he is an alcoholic, you can't make him stop. If he is an alcoholic, you cannot control him and make him slow down. With an alcoholic, every drink is "off to the races".

While you cannot control him, you can control your reaction to him. You do not owe the drunk your sanity.

If you are not close to this guy, distancing yourself and your club may be your best survival tactic. If you are close to him, Al Anon can help you develop some survival skills.

While I am no Pychiatrist (can I even spell it?) I would be cautious of labeling the guy an alcoholic without the full facts:
Yes he has 2 DUI, but when did he get them, how much over was he, etc.
Yes he behaved badly in public after more than a few too many it sounds - but how was everyone else behaving? Seems like nobody told him he needed to calm down /sleep it off during the night.
the point is, we don't know the full story of this guy.
The best thing to do is to let him know the standards expect of the club (and let everyone know them), tell him he is on his last warning and will be monitored closly until he has proven himself to be up to that standard, and tell him that if those standards do not suit him he is not welcome as part of the club. I think it is something that should be seperately brought up as a club issue regarding the drinking culture and the risk associated with alcoholicism - with some information from support groups / counsiling if anyone needs more information. And continue to have that information/pamphlets in the club just in case.

 

[rocketsan]

A DUI is a DUI. Two of them is worse. Now he's picking fights...

He'd be gone if it were my decision.


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[whitehause]

No need to get too overzealous about it.

Just tell him that his behavior was BS and next time it happens he's gone. If you've already warned him, then boot him.

If he has people in the club that are his friends outside the club, let them deal with his problems, no need to involve the club in someone's personal affairs.

 

[MaxStout]

Wisconsin likely has a dram shop law. Depending on the language of the law, your club could be liable if this (or any) member causes harm while under the influence of alcohol that was provided by the club. Depends on the state--some narrowly define a "dram shop" as a bar or restaurant, while other states will include social groups. The latter is the case in Minnesota, but Wisconsin could be different. In any case, you don't need a potential lawsuit hanging over your club.

Give him the boot.

Edit: Then have your club officers add a clause into the bylaws clarifying its process of dismissing troublesome members, so you'll have consistent club rules next time. Hopefully there's no "next time."

 

[mattd2]

A DUI is a DUI. Two of them is worse. Now he's picking fights...

He'd be gone if it were my decision.


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Would you say a 50 year old that got 2 DUIs when he was in his early 20s and nothing since then is the same as him getting 2 DUIs in the last 2 years?

 

[Rhumbline]

Would you say a 50 year old that got 2 DUIs when he was in his early 20s and nothing since then is the same as him getting 2 DUIs in the last 2 years?

I think the DUI thing is irrelevant. The guy was an ass, he offended people and caused his team embarrassment.

I don't know if this was an isolated incident or if he's new to the group. I still say boot him, for no other reason than to show the rest of the clubs that this behavior won't be tolerated and that you'll expect the same from them if the circumstances are reversed.

 

[Wynne-R]

People that do drugs and get crazy were crazy to start with.

It’s not impossible to get over it, but it is unusual.

 

[Zamial]

Do people realize that this is a WI HBC? Just thought I would point that out...

That being said I recently started going to fests and working them. I was pouring at the FDL Brewfest. I have gotten a bit to intoxicated at fests before but now am getting better at pacing myself.

For the record I have NEVER been so fecked up before as when I did my 1st HBC brew day at my house. I was drinking while brewing and sampling stuff people brought over in a taster glass. One of the last conscious things I remember is a club member saying "This is the cider on French oak and this one is the cider on American oak." If the club president would not have come back and helped me finish the brew day I am sure I would have boiled until the propane ran out and I woke up cold and hung over in the garage.

In all honesty I would just "unofficially" talk the guy and tell him that he needs to be more aware of his actions/drinking before the club has to do something about it. Making rules because of "one guy" is a crappy thing to have to do. If you can nip the problem in the bud without having to make club policy changes it would be the best.

FWIW there was more than 1 bad drunk at the FDL brewfest, if this guy belongs to a bunch of HBC in the state, he has been kicked out of at least 1 already. May not be the person I am thinking of however...

 

[tengstrom]

I even made a nice little cheer: Kick him out, kick him out, way out.


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[cjgenever]

Behavior like that is simply unacceptable. I would have removed his colors then and there. If it's a fight he wants, it's a fight he gets.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Fordmi]

I don't think the DUI is irrelevant at all. At the very least it shows the person doesn't know his limits and (repeatedly) makes bad decisions.

If I were in a position to review and approve new applicants to a homebrew club, I would think long and hard about admitting someone with a DUI. I would have to consider things like time since DUI, circumstances, etc... I know as well as anybody that $h1t happens, but you have to look at the potential negative impact on the club.

I vote for asking him to leave. You wrote out the negatives about his actions without saying anything positive about him. I would read between those lines and say he offers little good to your club.

 

[fartinmartin]

My humour is telling me that the "club drunk" may be writing some of these posts, I hope he is reading them, but for clarity I would print the whole damm lot and give them to him / her , so that the message comes from outside of your club.
I would invite him to stay away from the club for six months, then welcome him back but with a probation period.

 

[petey_c]

At first I was among the, "Give him a second chance." group. After reading some of the other posts, I've switched to, "Kick him out." He's an alcoholic who hasn't admitted it to himself yet. By allowing him to stay, you're enabling him. He's a liability to your club. I'd hate to try and live with myself if he got schist faced and killed himself or someone else on the way home from a club event.
Hopefully he'll realize he has a problem and get help. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen often enough.

 

[Conman13]

I suppose I am a little more hard nosed about this. It sounds like this person has had their chance, and blew it. Behavior like that is simply unacceptable. Furthermore, the clubs reputation is now tarnished. For the sake of the perception of the club, that person has to be removed. It sounds like apologies could be due to whoever hosted the event where the drunk went rampant also.

Is it more important to give this guy a 12th chance, or a wake up call? Which is more important - the respectability of the club, or giving this guy yet another chance (opportunity to screw up again)?

 

[Grannyknot]

Just my personal opinion....
If it was my club, nobody with 2 DUI's would be allowed in.

As much as I love brewing & beer, MULTIPLE DUIs is not acceptable. I don't hang around with people that think its ok to be in a perpetual state of teenage decision making. DUIs give our hobby a bad name, and most importantly show a disregard for public safety. Mistakes happen. The same mistake twice should not happen.

 

[trboyden]

Alcoholism is a disease that needs treatment, but the individual needs to want to get help. Nothing anyone says to him will make a difference until he realizes he has a problem and needs to get help.

DUI's are preventable and show a lack of responsibility and accountability for your actions. Has nothing to do with age or maturity. I am definitely in the camp of one and done when it comes to DUIs. That would be the #1 rule in my Home Brew Club, no DUIs, period.

It definitely sucks to be put in this position, but for your reputation, for the sake of the club, and for the sake of homebrewing in general, this situation needs to be nipped in the bud asap. It doesn't take much bad PR these days to get the government to start taking broad action regardless of a few bad apples. All you need is some MADD group to get up in arms about this and the whole homebrewing community will be in danger. I think you know this and I am preaching to the choir, but it is a serious situation, especially with the way society is today.

 

[Grinder12000]

How do you post a poll?

 

[Remmy]

No poll needed. Simply kick the dude out.

 

[dkwolf]

Club officers need to have a private, sit-down talk with him. The result of that should determine the next step. If he honestly is apologetic, and the officers believe he will truly make an effort to change, let him know this is his final warning, and any further problems will result in immediate action - stripping him of club membership, etc. If he does not seem willing to change, or becomes argumentative, revoke his membership immediately. If he wants to seek help, offer him a 6 month leave of absence from the club to get his life in order.

And definitely, the next thing your club needs to do is review your bylaws. You need a section on definition of membership, and expectations of members, as well as defining the process for involuntarily removing someone as a member. Be very specific on alcohol infractions (Public Intox = 3 month suspension first offense, 6 month second offense; DUI = 1 yr suspension first offense, mandatory revocation of membership and permanent ban on second offense).

It sucks to have to rewrite bylaws because of one person - but it also sucks that one person forced you into a position to have to do that. I am currently president of our volunteer fire department (there are two sides to our dept - the fire side, which answers to our fire board (city council and township trustees), and is led by the command staff of chiefs and captains, and the business side, which is a 501(c)3 organization, and is led by a standard roster of officers - pres, sec, treas). This year we will be reviewing our bylaws because of an incident that occurred last year. One of our older members, a non-active firefighter, was charged with attempted kidnapping and sexual abuse -- of another firefighters daughter. It wasn't the first time he had been charged with crap like that, but our bylaws are very specific - we can only kick someone out for a felony conviction, and he has a history of paying the families off to make problems go away. I'm going to push for lowering that to aggrevated misdemeanor, and mandatory review for any charges against children, plus suspension while any criminal case works through the court (we had to wait until the conviction was official to do anything) As firefighters, we can't have that crap in our department, even if it is a non-active member who hasn't climbed in a truck for a decade. And as a home brew club, you can't have a member crossing the line, especially when he starts harassing other guy's wives.

 

[Grinder12000]

dkwolf - yikes - my son in law is president of our volunteer fire department here in Wisconsin. I'll have to send this to him! LOL

 

[NervousDad]

Getting drunk and fighting is not something that can be fixed with a talk IMO. You have to remove the cause, which is alcohol. They're fighting because they don't know what they're doing, so they're not going to remember that you had a talk with them when they are s-faced. I personally wouldn't want to be around a person and fear that I'll be getting into a fight with them simply because they drank too much.

 

[glenn514]

I am leaning toward the "side" of dkwolf. If your club does NOT have any bylaw that addresses this fellow's actions, then your hands are tied; you cannot "kick him out" without cause [that part you have] and authority [that part you don't have].

An informal conversation needs to take place among the officers of the club and the member. That member needs to know his actions have caused him to be extremely UNwelcome at club activities. He also needs to understand that his actions have caused the club to revisit its constitution and bylaws, so that some "teeth" are in place for any similar actions by any club member. Once changes to the constitution and bylaws are in place, that member will know exactly where he stands.

Not an easy topic to tackle.

glenn514

 

[dkwolf]

To expand a little further, if your club is not incorporated and is little more than a loose association of brewers, you might have a little more leeway. Since our fire department is tied to the city, with members having to first be voted on by the department and then approved by the city council, and our bylaws specifically state that once a member, the only ways an individual can be removed from membership are if he/she moves outside of our fire district, misses four consecutive business meetings, or is convicted of a felony, had we taken any action against our little pervert before his conviction was final, he would have sued us and taken us to the cleaners.

A thought for a catch-all clause would be "...actions detrimental to the membership and/or public image of ____ home brew club, as determined by the current panel of officers, with consequences to be determined by such, up to and including termination of membership from the club."

 

[Beergnomes]

I think a letter of apology to the offended club and or brew fest if necessary is appropriate. Then I like Soccerdads approach, a more private one on one ultimatum.

 

[Rhumbline]

...misses four consecutive business meetings, or is convicted of a felony, had we taken any action against our little pervert before his conviction was final, he would have sued us and taken us to the cleaners.

"

So, if he'd won a four day cruise and during that time you had several business meetings, he'd be out? It would be worth a few hundred bucks to purge this pos.

Because my other solution involved duct tape, a shovel, and a baseball bat. I'm trying to be a better person.

 

[soccerdad]

Just my personal opinion....
If it was my club, nobody with 2 DUI's would be allowed in.

So you guys do background checks???

 

[glenn514]

A thought for a catch-all clause would be "...actions detrimental to the membership and/or public image of ____ home brew club, as determined by the current panel of officers, with consequences to be determined by such, up to and including termination of membership from the club."

That makes perfect sense! It would permit some latitude in each different situation, yet it offers the "authority" for the club to take action. I second the motion!

glenn514

 

[bajaedition]

Would you say a 50 year old that got 2 DUIs when he was in his early 20s and nothing since then is the same as him getting 2 DUIs in the last 2 years?

1 dui is something I can get over
2 shows that you have a learning problem and make poor decisions
2 duis and still drinking is another thing all together, it shows the abiltiy to put yourself in a bad situation, add the drink till you lose you inhibitions and fight and make a few passes at wives of club members
now you have proven you need to get a handle on the drinking

but besides that, the bigger problems,there are 2 bigger problems here

both deal with liability

the Club MAKES beer, that is all a lawyer needs to know to fillet the club in court if one of 2 things happen
he gets in a wreck leaving a club event, even if that event is a 2 beers at a club members house after work. He has a past history no matter how old and he belonged to a club that is highly involved with producing beer, thus enabling him to consume such.
or
He gets hurt somehow while at or after a club function and his family points to the fact his BEER CLUB was enabling his proven problem with alcohol.

where you sit about his problem or lack of problem is not what will be sued
it will be the wallet you have, the house you live in, the future earnings you make till the cost of the suit, and whatever is rewarded is collected.
even with the suit being won by the club, someone will have to pay for the cost of defending it.

believe me, when the Officer members are named and have to hire a lawyer, very few of the rest of the members are going step up and offer a few grand to help them, they are going distance themselves hoping no to get sued also.

now knowing such, who here wants to reach out and ask him to stop on his own free will, accepting the liability, and who would distance themselves from the liability?

 

[Opiate42]

Disclaimer: haven't read the entire thread, still kinda new here.

So you guys do background checks???

Don't know if going that far would be necessary. But a history of bad behaviour, I'm voting for the sit-down chat when sober.

It's a fun social thing, bad angry drunks who pick fights are not social or fun.

Give him a couple strikes, suggest he takes it easy on the booze in public so he doesn't get fighty, but if he uses those strikes up he's no longer a welcome member.

Things like this make me happy I'm a smiley happy drunk

 

[Homercidal]

If you or other members of the club really like the guy, it would be worth it to have a heart-to-heart about his problem (as you see it). It is worth it to help a friend.

But as a club, you need to cut him out. He is a serious risk for others in the club.

In any event, club members need to be aware of the expectations the club has of them, and the club needs to monitor people at their parties and call cabs, contact police, etc. to protect the club. It is far better to be embarrassed by having to call in some help, than it would be for the police or fire department to pull this guy out of a burning wreck wearing the club shirt.

It's a Homebrew club. Asking someone not to drink while at a club party is dumb. If he continues to be a member, then sooner or later he will drink too much again and it's not worth the risk.

 

[trboyden]

You don't need to. Just like an employment form, have your membership sign a form 1) asking if they have had a DUI, and 2) state if they lie about it they are automatically terminated. The policy on how many DUI's a person can have before they are kicked out I leave to the clubs to decide. You can require your membership to resign/recommit at any time, just like an annual acknowledgement of an employee manual. After that, if it becomes common knowledge that a person got a DUI, which is easily verifiable through public records/newspaper records, the club can take action. Aside from that common/practical step, background checks are cheap and easy to do today. There are websites dedicated to it that women use for checking up on potential dates. That is how common it is now. Just like checking a vehicle history report.

 

[Grannyknot]

So you guys do background checks???

I suppose that quote was from my post??.....
It isn't my club and so no, I don't do background checks.

My point was that I would not knowingly let someone with 2 DUIs into my homebrew club.

 

[BeerGrylls]

So you guys do background checks???

What's wrong with asking the person before letting him join? If you later find out he was lying, that makes the decision much easier.

 

[soccerdad]

I wasn't being snide with the background check question - honest. I just see a few quantum leaps being taken here .. like the assumption that the guy is an addict. He very well might not be. He sure seems to be a butt hole though We also seem to think that his DUIs were all in the past 3 weeks and plastered all over the front page. But we have no clue. They might be 15 and 20 years old. I think any club needs to have parameters for either being inclusive or exclusive. It doesn't matter to me which they choose. But questions about whether you have EVER had a DUI when you are all about making beer and tasting beer seems counter intuitive. Will you also ask prospective members if they are pricks when they drink?

 

[Grannyknot]

I have an aversion to people with multiple DUIs, due to a tragic event earlier in my life.
Call it a quantum leap, unjustified, whatever.....the 2nd is unforgivable in my eyes, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[unionrdr]

My youngest brother was hit by a speeding pick up back in '70-'72. The guy had stopped at the little store across the corner from my street & got some beer. My sis & I were picking wild strawberries on a cul de sac about a mile away when we heard a skid & thump. I'll always blame myself for talking my parents into his 1st sleep over. I knew the other kid & he was irresponsible at times.
But that guy being drunk did it. An off duty black nurse revived him,but he only lived like another 5 days. In light of this memory,I say he should get das boot before he does something you'll all be sorry for. It might finally snap him into reality?...