Higher Sulfate PPM = Less Hop Flavor?

[Chirobrewer]

Ok, so I have read the sticky Sulfate to Chloride Ratio that covered how perceived bitterness increases when there is a higher SO4:Cl ratio. I recently was reading about the hop stand technique and came across the MBAA article Maximizing Hop Aroma and Flavor Through Process Variables that compared hop flavor & bitterness perception with the hop stand technique and dry hopping etc. etc...... When I read through the discussion, they nonchalantly reported:

"We also looked at correlations with the sulfate levels of the
brewing water. We found a fairly clear negative correlation between
sulfate levels and perceived hop flavor (Fig. 10). The correlation
coefficient was –0.44 (statistically significant at the 95%
confidence level), which clearly indicates that highly hopped
beer might be better made using brewing liquors with lower sulfate
concentrations."

If you take a look at the figure in reference (Fig. 10), it seems that the highest 'grouping' of hop flavor perception was found at lower SO4 levels between 0-100 ppm (save for a few outliers).

Has anyone experienced this sort of trend in their quest to craft their perfect IPA? And, with emphasis on 'their', considering such a wide spectrum of perception amongst the masses.

Not sure if this has been brought up before but after a quick search I didn't see any references to the above study regarding sulfate. I know every recipe has it's own nuances and subtleties, so there isn't a hard and fast 'rule', but has anyone noticed this?

P.S. The last thing I wanted to do with this post is create a 'cookbook' sort of mentality for new/beginner brewers such as: "Now that I have read this, I should keep my SO4 under 100 while still maintaining the increased hop bitterness perception via a higher SO4:Cl ratio that I read in the sticky he referenced earlier".... Just seeing if anyone has noticed this and/or can confirm it in the name of science and replication, so I can apply it (or I guess reapply it) lol

Cheers errbody

 

[schematix]

I think the key to a really good IPA is to bitter substantially and spread the IBUs across many hops additions (FWH, 60, 30, 15, 10, 5 and a HUGE steep for a LONG time after BKO). I find the higher sulfate water helps (last one was 300:100 SO4:CL). I find low mineralization water to be make the beer seem thin.

 

[Chirobrewer]

I'm glad you mentioned 'thin' because I've noticed my recent IPAs with 100-150 ppm of SO4 (with a high SO4/Cl ratio) seem just a tad thin/watery to me, even though FG was 1.013, mashed at 152, and have Munich and/or Vienna and/or Wheat along with Carapils for body, and the flavor is there

 

[schematix]

What was your OG? Body is more than just FG.

I find single infusion at 152 leads to really thin beer. Whats your mash system?

 

[Chirobrewer]

OG was 1.068, and I BIAB with one of those custom voile BrewBags hooked up to a pulley system to a 12 gal aluminum stockpot, mash for 75 with grain crush finer than usual (cause I can)

 

[schematix]

1.013 from 1.068 is pretty dry.

Do you do a RIMS or direct fire your mash?

As much as i hate spending the extra time i've found step mashes really help the body.

For a long time i was plagued with 85-90% attenuated beers until i started doing step mashes with my RIMS. Now it's a rare day i get 75% and my beer is better for it.

 

[gifty74]

Not to sidetrack this thread, but what is your step schedule?

As for the sulfate thing, I've been following some other threads on "NE style IPA" and the like and some of those guys are finding that higher chlorides are actually more their preference. My last 2 I dosed with gypsum to get the sulfates up there, but might be backing down on that in future batches.

 

[ajdelange]

Sulfate is usually thought of as affecting the roughness/harshness of hops bittering which is often expressed in terms of rendering the beer dry. Flavor is another matter.

As for the negative correlation between sulfate and flavor perception take that with a grain of salt. Clearly the large negative correlation the investigators found is largely influenced by that last point at 1000 ppm sulfate. Take it out of the data set and the magnitude of the correlation coefficient is reduced (as is the statistical significance).

 

[schematix]

Not to sidetrack this thread, but what is your step schedule?

As for the sulfate thing, I've been following some other threads on "NE style IPA" and the like and some of those guys are finding that higher chlorides are actually more their preference. My last 2 I dosed with gypsum to get the sulfates up there, but might be backing down on that in future batches.

Most recent one i doughed in targetting 131. I then immediately ramped to 144F, and held it for 40 minutes, then ramped it to 161 and held it for 30 minutes, before ramping to 169 and immediately beginning runoff. This is basically a Hockhurz mash.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm not sure what sulfate does to flavor. It certainly enhances bitterness, but flavor I think is more impacted by reasonable presence of sodium and chloride (table salt!) than anything else.

Some salt is better than no salt, and it isn't terribly critical what type either. A distilled/RO beer is going to taste more wimpy than the same beer with only 100+ ppm gypsum added. That's a fact. Add some CaCl2 and boom.

Sulfate to Chloride Ratio is an inherently flawed concept. There is no magic to the ratio. If you like to accentuate flavor, add chloride. If you like to accentuate bitterness, add sulfate. If you like both, add both. If you like neither, add neither.

Complex hop regimens (e.g., 60, 55, 50, 45, 40, ad nauseum...) are a waste of good hops. Use some bittering hops if needed but otherwise dump 'em all in at the end. You'll get more flavor from flameout and whirlpool hops than anything else.

Complex mash regimens don't matter either. Why do we make believe we're adding value in all these techniques? Why do we make things more complicated than they need to be? Ugh.

Use some chloride and sulfate, ignore the ratio, add a lot of really good hops late/whirlpool. It's really not more complicated than that. Really.

Cheers.

 

[schematix]

Complex hop regimens (e.g., 60, 55, 50, 45, 40, ad nauseum...) are a waste of good hops. Use some bittering hops if needed but otherwise dump 'em all in at the end. You'll get more flavor from flameout and whirlpool hops than anything else.

To me there isn't much difference between 60-30 min. A mix from 30 down to 0 though adds a lot IMHO.

Complex mash regimens don't matter either. Why do we make believe we're adding value in all these techniques? Why do we make things more complicated than they need to be? Ugh.

We make things more complicated because they add value. I've had considerably better body and head retention since going to a step mash like I outlined above. On my system it's not that big of a deal either. It's just a timer and a few taps of a button.

 

[dmtaylor]

Don't get me wrong, I still experiment, as we all should do. Just a couple of months ago I ran another back-to-back two-batch experiment of a double-decoction vs. a single infusion, same recipe otherwise. The two beers tasted slightly different. HOWEVER, out of 16 tasters, preferences were split almost exactly 50/50, and there was no noted difference in body or head retention at all. Hmm.

We do make things complicated, and they don't need to be. Value is subjective. If it were objective, then that would be another thing. But typically it's not.

 

[mabrungard]

The correlation of hop flavor to sulfate content used in that paper extends far outside the range typically recommended or used. If you look at the 'cloud ' of data at 300 ppm and less, you won't find any such correlation. I've never noted that hop flavor is particularly affected in thr sulfate range I use. As mentioned, sulfate generally affects the perception of dryness in beer.

 

[Chirobrewer]

Thanks for all of the great responses everybody! I have step mashed before and when I stopped and went back to single infusion, I didn't notice too much of a difference and decided it was less of a PITA for the same end result. I'm having trouble getting the juicy hop presence to really pop, and when I do think I have it, it doesn't last for very long. Maybe you guys could critique my next IPA recipe to see where I could be dropping the ball? I altered it to include more hops and to move the hops closer to FO and whirlpool because I'm not getting the flavor I want with 15 thru 5 min additions. The last recipe had the same hop varieties, but with 8.5 oz total hops instead of the updated 11 oz total. I wondered if it was hop quality but I did the same batch with hops from my LHBS and then with hops shipped from MoreBeer, and it had a similar end result: The beer was good, but not great, and lacked that ripe juicy mouth-watering flavor I have grown to love in commercial examples such as Deschutes Fresh Squeezed and 10 Barrel JOE IPA.

House IPA

Grain Bill 60 min Mash @152F, Mash out @168F for 10 mins, BIAB
10# 2-row (71.43%)
2# Munich (9L) (14.29%)
1# Vienna (7.14%)
0.5# Crystal 30 (3.57%)
0.5# Carapils (3.57%)

Water Profile
Ca 102, Mg 13, Na 3, Cl 59, SO4 189 (Cl/SO4 ratio = 0.31)
5 ml Lactic Acid (88%)
5.2 ph

Hop Schedule 60 min Boil
0.75 oz Columbus FWH (34 AAU)

0.5 oz Warrior @ 60 (24 AAU)

Galaxy 1 oz @ FO
Simcoe 1 oz @ FO }------Hop stand for 20-30 mins, keep above 190F
Mosaic 0.5 oz @ FO
Amarillo 0.25 oz @ FO

Galaxy 1.5 oz @ Whirlpool
Simcoe 1.5 oz @ Whirlpool }-------Hop stand for 30-45 mins @ 150-160F
Mosaic 1 oz @ Whirlpool
Amarillo 0.75 oz @ Whirlpool

Galaxy 0.75 oz Dry hop
Simcoe 0.75 oz Dry hop }------- Dry hop for 5-7 days @ 70F
Mosaic 0.5 oz Dry hop
Amarillo 0.25 oz Dry hop

Yeast
American Ale II (Wyeast 1272), 2L starter w/ nutrient
Ferment @ 66F (ferm chamber) for first 3-4 days (I usually wait until I notice active vigorous ferm has slowed significantly before I ramp up)
Ramp up one degree per day until @ 70F
Primary 2.5 weeks
Dry hop in voile bag weighed down w/marbles in Primary (5-7 days)
Bottle with 2.5-2.7 vols CO2 (I like bubbles)

Specs
Proj. OG 1.074
Proj. FG 1.017 (wanted this a bit higher because my 1.013-1.014 FG IPAs still seem to lack a bit of body)
7.3% ABV
57 IBUs (not sure I really care about/trust IBUs at this point)
Eff 72%
*all done with vigilance to avoid oxidation, obviously

 

[Smellyglove]

I'd say 3/5 beers I've made for as long as I've been brewing has been on the hoppy side as I totally fell in love with IPA's the first time I tasted one.

After experimenting for to-three years and reading a lot about what actually makes a hop, the oil. My hoppy beers have improved a lot.

#1. More hops doesn't help if you don't pay extreme attention to oxygen pickup cold side. Then just more flavours get ruined. Expecially freshness.

#2. Use the hops correctly. More hops doesn't help if you boil or evaporate away the oils, or expose them to oxygen.

#3. Temperature after fermentation. If you bottle carbonate "the normal" way, I will say that you've already lost, comparing to keeping the beer cold from fermentation to bottle/keg and you've introduced "unnecessary" oxygen at any point.

I've also just skipped sulfates, because I just dont like the effect it gives. I have about 5PPM of sulfates in my water and I don't add any more, per now. Maybe I'll bump them again after I've diald in the new system.. I've tasted many "burtonized" beers and I often want to cry while drinking them. Hops are just pushed to the background because that SO4 dryness takes over your tongue like a hijacker. I only use CaCl to get enough Ca in the water.

When I compare my homebrews to others I often find that my APA's are more fresh and noticable more hoppy than other peoples IPA's, even double IPA's. Because I'm a nazi when it comes to the points described over.

 

[Chirobrewer]

#1. More hops doesn't help if you don't pay extreme attention to oxygen pickup cold side. Then just more flavours get ruined. Expecially freshness.

#2. Use the hops correctly. More hops doesn't help if you boil or evaporate away the oils, or expose them to oxygen.

#3. Temperature after fermentation. If you bottle carbonate "the normal" way, I will say that you've already lost, comparing to keeping the beer cold from fermentation to bottle/keg and you've introduced "unnecessary" oxygen at any point.

#1 Could you elaborate further? I do my best with what I have in my system to eliminate oxygen pickup at any given moment except right before pitching. That entails not using a secondary (if I want to harvest yeast I do it from the starter or crop the top at high krausen), not opening the primary at all unless I dry hop, and since I usually primary for 3-4 weeks, I'm not worried about taking a hydro sample until I am transferring to the bottling bucket. I am looking into fixing my kegging system so I can purge with CO2 and fill my cornys, but for now, other than gently transferring to my bottling bucket and avoiding splashing when gently stirring to incorporate the priming sugar, and using a bottling wand to fill from the bottom up, what else can I do to limit oxygenation?

#2 Do you think the hopping schedule I am proposing is wasteful? I think a FWH and 60 min bittering charge and then all FO and whirlpool hops at lower temps (150-160) would be limiting oil volatility compared to the standard 'late addition' boil schedule from 15-0 mins; have you whirl-pooled at even lower temps and noticed a positive difference in hop flavor?

#3 I usually bottle carb at the same temp I ferment at, so for this IPA, around 67F. Would you suggest bottle carbing at lower temps and just letting it condition longer?

Thanks for your time in writing a thorough reply, btw

 

[Smellyglove]

You say you already have a kegging system, but you also say that you bottle carb?

Okay. For some this might be a bit much, if you just read it. But many small ponds make a lake, or whatever. Eliminating oxygen and keeping the beer cold is the first MAJOR key to getting more out of your hops, without them staling/oxidizing.

I can tell you what I'm doing. This is the procedure I've landed on since I'm not made of money, so this is what I've been doing with my stuff:

I use a bucket as a fermentor.

Whenever dryhopping I turn up the temperature by at least 0.5C so the beer will degass a bit and purge some of the introduced oxygen away. I dryhop for a maximum of 5 days at fermentation temperature. at 19C, on day six those aromas are at their peak (in my previous system at least). Cold crash starting day 6. If you let the dry hops sit longer after their peak they will slowwly diminish.

After dryhopping I wait a day or two for the mentioned degassing and purging to occur, then spund the bucket. I just use a hose which is melted and sealed in one end, and stick it in the bung. This will create an overpressure in the bucket (since it's still degassing) which will work as a "buffer" during cold crash. So during CC the bucket will not suck air thought the airlock.

24h after CC I find my keg. The keg hase ben filled to the absolute maximum with starsan beforehand, and co2 is gently introduced to the keg (just to not waste to much co2) and the star san is being pumped to whatever. In to a container if you want to not waste it, or, if you have more empty cornys available then i just use a jumper connector between beer in and beer in and pump it to the next corny in line.
This way the recieving corny is just full of co2, no oxygen.

I then prepare two hoses. One which goes from my spigot on the fermentation bucket, to beer in on the corny, the other one goes from gas out and into the bung of the fermentor. Now it's a closed loop. Now, I have to connect the two ball locks at the exact same time to the corny, or else co2 will rush through one of the ball locks popping the lid of the fermentor open.

So, cold beer inside the corny, purge the keg, and carbonate it. It never sees any heat/room temperature after cold-crashing.

I've recently ordered some foil-ballons (the ones kids have) and I'm thinking about making another hole in my fermentor, so this ballon can act as a co2 "reservoir" for whenever I'm taking a sample, and also during CC.

After I started doing what I just described, the freshness of hops skyrocketed and I was also able to use less hops.

And oh.. For hops in the boil. I just use a bittering addition, a small 10 minute addition to get some more "depth", and rest of kettle addidions are added in a WP for 30 minutes at 130F. It's all about the oils.
Oxygen and temperature.

 

[Smellyglove]

other than gently transferring to my bottling bucket and avoiding splashing when gently stirring to incorporate the priming sugar, and using a bottling wand to fill from the bottom up, what else can I do to limit oxygenation?

Fix your corny-line. It might seem like a cocky answer, but I'm serious. The way I described my technique and "normal" bottle conditioning is almost uncomparable when it comes to quality of hops in your homebrewed beer. If you take your time and spend some hours reading about different oils in hops, and A-B the technique I described against classical bottle conditioning you'll understand it

 

[Chirobrewer]

Thanks for the disclaimer and not being a d*ck about it, but if it's what you have experienced in terms of what needs to be done to increase flavor and quality, I'm all ears. I moved from San Diego to CO last December and my dual tap tower kegerator didn't make the trip. Soooo when I have the time & money to invest into another kegerator project, which is next on my list, I'll get on that. Until then, I guess it's balloons lol :rockin:

Are you going with mylar/foil balloons instead of regular latex due to the increased pressure that latex balloons require to inflate? I assume you're not actually spunding to carb the beer, but to act as a chamber to hold CO2 during CC when the pressure reverses with temp drop and inevitably begins to draw it back in. That's a pretty clever way of doing it.

From what I read, it looks like you dry hop for 5 full days, on the 6th day CC for 24 hours, then transfer/keg on day 7. Also WP at 130 seems interesting, might try that next brew, as I seem to be lowering my WP temp with every subsequent brew anyways lol.

One idea I had a while back but never used because I take my sample right before bottling: drill another hole halfway up the bucket and add a second spigot just to draw samples from, eliminating the introduction of oxygen from opening the lid and any need for an additional reservoir. I figure as long as you tip and move the bucket around before fermentation begins to allow any trapped air to escape from the voids in the spigot, it would work just fine.

 

[Smellyglove]

Thanks for the disclaimer and not being a d*ck about it, but if it's what you have experienced in terms of what needs to be done to increase flavor and quality, I'm all ears. I moved from San Diego to CO last December and my dual tap tower kegerator didn't make the trip. Soooo when I have the time & money to invest into another kegerator project, which is next on my list, I'll get on that. Until then, I guess it's balloons lol :rockin:

Are you going with mylar/foil balloons instead of regular latex due to the increased pressure that latex balloons require to inflate? I assume you're not actually spunding to carb the beer, but to act as a chamber to hold CO2 during CC when the pressure reverses with temp drop and inevitably begins to draw it back in. That's a pretty clever way of doing it.

From what I read, it looks like you dry hop for 5 full days, on the 6th day CC for 24 hours, then transfer/keg on day 7. Also WP at 130 seems interesting, might try that next brew, as I seem to be lowering my WP temp with every subsequent brew anyways lol.

One idea I had a while back but never used because I take my sample right before bottling: drill another hole halfway up the bucket and add a second spigot just to draw samples from, eliminating the introduction of oxygen from opening the lid and any need for an additional reservoir. I figure as long as you tip and move the bucket around before fermentation begins to allow any trapped air to escape from the voids in the spigot, it would work just fine.

You are correct in everything you said. But you might want to cold crash longer than 24hrs if you want a more clear beer. But the more clear it is, the less hop flavour/aroma you'll get. I like my IPA/APA's pretty hazy, it's sexy

What I described is my way of doing things with what equipment I have. There are many ways to rome. But it took me about two years to come this far, most of the batches were about trying out and perfecting different techniques. I've never competed before, but from all the homebrew IPAs and APAs i've tasted from other people, and comparing to how my first ones tasted, I will never go back from any of this.

I dint't understand why it would be any different by adding a second spigot than just pulling samplles from the one you already have at the bottom?

 

[schematix]

I recently did a LoDO IPA using much of the same process as what the german brewing guys outlined in their PDF. Only difference was the addition of dry hopping (done during active fermentation to scrub O2) and added a weak priming solution at the end (again to scrub O2)

-Used boiled mash and sparge water. Treated with SMB.
-Fermented in corny kegs under pressure (~3.5 psi)
-Dry hopped at the end of active fermentation (~1.020)
-Racked under a closed system w/o external CO2
-Added priming sugar to the keg and conditioned at room temp for 2 weeks.

It was a huge hassle and the most complex recipe I've ever executed, but its an order of magnitude improvement from my previous best IPA. It's been more than a month now and it's still the hoppiest beer i've ever made while also maintaining a smooth malt and hop flavor that i've never been able to recreate in a homebrew until now.

 

[Chirobrewer]

I dint't understand why it would be any different by adding a second spigot than just pulling samplles from the one you already have at the bottom?

I guess I was referring to the setup that I currently use and that many other bottle primers use, in which I do not have a spigot at the bottom of my primary bucket fermenter because I rack off of the yeast and hops into a bottling bucket. I can see how that was confusing, probably shouldn't have said '2nd spigot'.

 

[Chirobrewer]

I recently did a LoDO IPA using much of the same process as what the german brewing guys outlined in their PDF. Only difference was the addition of dry hopping (done during active fermentation to scrub O2) and added a weak priming solution at the end (again to scrub O2.

Very interesting, I read a lot of this thread and was wondering if it would have the same effect on an IPA as a Helles, since I figured the massive amount of hops would disguise any subtle malt flavor increase from this method. Guess I didn't read far enough into that 98 page thread! Do I really have to toss out my copper immersion chiller and go stainless lol

 

[schematix]

Very interesting, I read a lot of this thread and was wondering if it would have the same effect on an IPA as a Helles, since I figured the massive amount of hops would disguise any subtle malt flavor increase from this method. Guess I didn't read far enough into that 98 page thread! Do I really have to toss out my copper immersion chiller and go stainless lol

I made the Helles in the PDF exactly as called for and i think in a beer that light and lightly hopped that the LoDO malt sweetness shines above everything.

In the IPA I think it's there but it's different. To me it comes across as a brighter cleaner flavor rather than a dull malt flavor. Hard to describe, especially next to 2lbs of hops. The un-oxidized hop flavor is amazing though.

I use a Hydra IC and so far, so good. It might have some impact but i don't think its a make-or-break like the boiled mash water w/ SMB.

 

[Smellyglove]

I made the Helles in the PDF exactly as called for and i think in a beer that light and lightly hopped that the LoDO malt sweetness shines above everything.

In the IPA I think it's there but it's different. To me it comes across as a brighter cleaner flavor rather than a dull malt flavor. Hard to describe, especially next to 2lbs of hops. The un-oxidized hop flavor is amazing though.

I use a Hydra IC and so far, so good. It might have some impact but i don't think its a make-or-break like the boiled mash water w/ SMB.

Have you done low oxygen techniques post fermentation before, so you can compare hot side and cold side effects of LODO?

 

[Chirobrewer]

How could I apply some of these techniques with BIAB? I can't conceptualize how to reduce the ppm of o2 pre-mash since I can't underlet the mash with my BIAB setup. Should I condition the grains before mash with a spray bottle solution of h2o/SMB and then add to the BrewBag, then slowly lower the bag into the treated strike water? I feel like there would still be pockets of air no matter what I did, which would defeat the purpose of LoDO brewing since there will most certainly be over 1.0 ppm of O2... or am I assuming too much?

 

[schematix]

Have you done low oxygen techniques post fermentation before, so you can compare hot side and cold side effects of LODO?

Yes and no. None of this is scientific, and inclueds my personal biased opinion.

The IPA required that I open the primary lid to add dry hops (but i did it at 1.020 so it was still fermenting). Since i racked to the serving keg at FG i had to crack the lid again to add priming sugar. The beer has the LoDO malt taste and the LoDO hop flavor to me.

Before LoDO i had come to the realization that something was wrong with my beer, and i highly suspected oxygenation. Prior to that i had been doing standard home brewer hot side techniques, and 3-4 week primaries in PET bottles. I was then force carbonating (bottle CO2 isn't pure). These beers degraded quickly after a few weeks.

The next level of improvement was still using PET bottles, but i started racking to kegs much sooner... like ales in 6 days and lagers in 10 (visually this was around the time the yeast first started to drop, which i would suspect, but never measured, was within 1-3 points of FG. I found a big improvement in the flavor stability from this, but it was hardly LoDO.

If i was still doing the PET bottles i'd add priming sugar to every keg and do natural carbonation, because that also scrubs the remaining O2. I think that's the best LoDO technique you can do for the money.

 

[ajdelange]

I realize that the discussion has journeyed far from the OP and I haven't looked at this for quite a while. The author of the TQ paper plugged some numbers into a spreadsheet and drew a conclusion with 95% certainty which he was not justified in drawing. TQ's tech editor(s) should have caught this. Pearson's r is not a robust statistic meaning that it is greatly influenced by outliers. The outliers in the published data set are obvious and should have been removed.

 

[Smellyglove]

To be honest I don't feel that the topic has journeyed that far away. He's asking for sulfates PPM and hop flavor. Every discussion will wander a bit off here and there, but I feel that this discussion has been a very nice one about how to get more out of your hops. It takes up some points which OP maybe never thought about, but are served here for free

So, his question maybe led him to some different answers which may help him. And, I wrote my opinion on sulfates, althouh baked into a bigger post, so it might be "hidden" if you just skim it.

 

[jigtwins]

I've also just skipped sulfates, because I just dont like the effect it gives. I have about 5PPM of sulfates in my water and I don't add any more, per now. Maybe I'll bump them again after I've diald in the new system.. I've tasted many "burtonized" beers and I often want to cry while drinking them. Hops are just pushed to the background because that SO4 dryness takes over your tongue like a hijacker. I only use CaCl to get enough Ca in the water.

When I compare my homebrews to others I often find that my APA's are more fresh and noticable more hoppy than other peoples IPA's, even double IPA's. Because I'm a nazi when it comes to the points described over.

How does the lack of sulfates effect the flavor of the beer? I would assume it to be a bit fuller or maybe a bit less dry tasting would be a better description. I have been using ro water and building up. Just have not been able to get the flavor I am after. Maybe lower sulfates is the way to go.

 

[Chirobrewer]

How does the lack of sulfates effect the flavor of the beer? I would assume it to be a bit fuller or maybe a bit less dry tasting would be a better description. I have been using ro water and building up. Just have not been able to get the flavor I am after. Maybe lower sulfates is the way to go.

That's what initially intrigued me when I read the study. The general consensus (including AJ's, whose opinion I trust and value) is that the proposed correlation of lower sulfate leads to better hop flavor is weak due to a few extreme outliers, and that the editors of the study should have done their due diligence and caught that error. Does that mean you shouldn't try it and see for yourself? Hell no. I firmly believe that since most homebrewers' systems/recipes/methods are unique, that different people using the same technique can have largely different experiences and results, so trial and error (or trial and success) is essential to dialing in your system.

 

[ajdelange]

Keep in mind that what follows is one man's opinion. Sulfate, to me, amplifies the harsh, rough, almost choking qualities of hops bitterness to the point that the subtle hop (and malt) flavors can't be enjoyed. The noble hops are distinguished from the rest by their "fine" bitterness but that fine bitterness is only realized when sulfate is absent or present at low levels (below 20 - 25 mg/L ?). At higher levels even noble hop bitterness becomes rough/harsh and therefore requires that lower levels are allowable before the beer becomes undrinkable. This, of course, reduces the amount of hop flavor and aroma that can be achieved as one must use fewer hops. Thus, especially when noble hops are used, low sulfate is a must for most people. Other cultivars, with which I have very little experience, are different in this regard and I believe other tasters respond to bitterness differently than the way I do. There are those who seem to love the more assertive hops bitterness. Keep in mind too that there are lagers brewed with high sulfate levels. Some of which, notably the famous Jever Pils (now wimped way down from what it used to be - at least the examples you can get in the US these days) had that overwhelming bitterness.

 

[Smellyglove]

How does the lack of sulfates effect the flavor of the beer? I would assume it to be a bit fuller or maybe a bit less dry tasting would be a better description. I have been using ro water and building up. Just have not been able to get the flavor I am after. Maybe lower sulfates is the way to go.

I feel there's more taste of everything else in the recipe. The sulfates sort of "numb" (not actually, but sort of) your tongue.

But I'm still dialing in this system. It might be that i'll bump the sulfates.

I like the firm, direct, soft (I only use low cohumulone bittering hops(unless doing a classic lager or whatever)) bitterness. It's short, but it's concise, ad flavors just pop up. Instead of a lingering dryness, which I don't like, since the doesn't let the other stuff come though as good. So instead of adding more of caramel malt, more hops, more whatever, I just decided that I'll get rid of that thing which I felt was in the way, the sulfates.

But. This is just my opinion. Maybe it's just a phase I'm going through.