High mash temp -> more complex sugar -> gravity still the same?

[tomaso]

I was wondering about the following: the higher I mash, the more unfermentable (or at least more difficult to ferment) long-chain sugars I get; but will those sugars still 'show up' in my gravity reading the same way the simpler ones would?

I.e. If I mash x grain at 64C and get a reading of 1.050
will the same amount of grain mashed at 68C still produce a reading of 1.050 or lower?

Thanks for your help!

 

[ColoHox]

The measurement is based on total dissolved solids, so the type of sugar present in the solution does not matter.

 

[skunkfunk]

Honestly it'll probably up your efficiency a hair to mash higher. Your hydrometer can read all the sugars the same as far as I know. You'll have a higher FG though, supposedly. Kinda depends on what you pitch in it, some strains eat damn near everything.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Mashing higher or lower shouldn't change the sugar extraction from the grain. It will change the fermentability of the wort from your friendly yeast strain. The grain has a fairly fixed amount of sugar and a good crush and hot water bath will solubilize a percentage of those sugars that is fairly predictable.

 

[skunkfunk]

Mashing higher or lower shouldn't change the sugar extraction from the grain. It will change the fermentability of the wort from your friendly yeast strain. The grain has a fairly fixed amount of sugar and a good crush and hot water bath will solubilize a percentage of those sugars that is fairly predictable.

Check out this bit from the great Braukaiser. He's where I get all my weird ideas about lager brewing and conversion efficiency; incredibly great read, his stuff.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...nd_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing#Time

The figure shows a pretty big difference in total conversion efficiency due to temperature and time.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Check out this bit from the great Braukaiser. He's where I get all my weird ideas about lager brewing and conversion efficiency; incredibly great read, his stuff.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...nd_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing#Time

The figure shows a pretty big difference in total conversion efficiency due to temperature and time.

When I look at the actual data points I don't see too much variation in efficacy. At 60 minutes the data points are very close and the curves have 3% or less difference. I think that in a homebrewers kitchen there are so many other variables out there affecting extraction efficiency that temperature becomes a mute point on the matter of sugar extraction as measured by a hydrometer.

This doesn't dismiss the idea that there are ideal temperatures to maximize certain parameters but I do think that this is another red herring in homebrew land.

 

[skunkfunk]

When I look at the actual data points I don't see too much variation in efficacy. At 60 minutes the data points are very close and the curves have 3% or less difference.

Don't get me wrong I don't mash to maximize extraction (my favorite mash temp is 148F) but the data point @ 60 minutes is 57% vs 68%. That's a HUGE swing. It closes up a bit after the regression, but still. The first chart is maximum attenuation, the second is the extraction efficiency.

 

[ColoHox]

Let's not turn this into another mash efficiency thread, there are loads of them.

OP's question was specifically about the influence of simple vs complex sugars on the gravity reading...and there is no difference. The specific gravity measurement will tell you nothing about fermentability.

 

[skunkfunk]

Let's not turn this into another mash efficiency thread, there are loads of them.

OP's question was specifically about the influence of simple vs complex sugars on the gravity reading...and there is no difference. The specific gravity measurement will tell you nothing about fermentability.

Hey, this is the internet, take your topic and get off our lawn!

 

[tomaso]

Do not hijack my thread, for I am the OP and I will lay my wrath upon you!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL

Just joking, well I think my main question was answered anyway more or less.
It's just because the last few brews I hit my OG spot on but always came out too high on FG despite (what I think is) healthy yeast and decent fermentation. So I thought that the culprit mightbe mashing too high by accident.

Sometimes would be 2-3C above the target temp for the first 15mins or so (e.g. 68 instead of 66). But is that enough to denature and give me so many complex sugars that the gravity can't go down more???

Thanks for y'all's advice!

 

[zefbrew]

Do not hijack my thread, for I am the OP and I will lay my wrath upon you!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL

Just joking, well I think my main question was answered anyway more or less.
It's just because the last few brews I hit my OG spot on but always came out too high on FG despite (what I think is) healthy yeast and decent fermentation. So I thought that the culprit mightbe mashing too high by accident.

Sometimes would be 2-3C above the target temp for the first 15mins or so (e.g. 68 instead of 66). But is that enough to denature and give me so many complex sugars that the gravity can't go down more???

Thanks for y'all's advice!

3 degrees for 15 minutes is not the end of the world. I wonder how accurate your thermometer is. Maybe it's reading lower than what the tempreture actually is..? Do you have another thermometer? Also, do you measure in different spots of the mash? I find that there are hot pockets and cooler pockets. I generally mix the mash with a spoon before I read the temperature, and I measure in different spots to see the average tempreture.

 

[tomaso]

3 degrees for 15 minutes is not the end of the world. I wonder how accurate your thermometer is. Maybe it's reading lower than what the tempreture actually is..? Do you have another thermometer? Also, do you measure in different spots of the mash? I find that there are hot pockets and cooler pockets. I generally mix the mash with a spoon before I read the temperature, and I measure in different spots to see the average tempreture.

I have one thermometer with two probes which I have in the mash the whole time and another one. So think my temp measurements are ok
If my mash temp were a bit lower I'd still have to get the same amount of fermentables, though, right? Kind of the point of my thread

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Oxygenation, pitching sufficient healthy yeast and yeast nutrient can also potentially affect your final gravity. Do you use dry or liquid yeast? Starter? How do you aerate/oxygenate? Do you use yeast nutrient?

 

[zefbrew]

You can try mash between 60c and 65c , which is the optimal tempreture for beta amylase enzyme activity. So maybe try aim for the middle range of 62 or 63.

 

[tomaso]

Oxygenation, pitching sufficient healthy yeast and yeast nutrient can also potentially affect your final gravity. Do you use dry or liquid yeast? Starter? How do you aerate/oxygenate? Do you use yeast nutrient?

I oxygenate by shaking which has worked well so far, I definitely pitch sufficient healthy yeast; yeast is dry and usually I don't rehydrate before pitching which has also worked so far but now I'll start rehydrating. I don't use any yeast nutrient.

I think that the culprit also might be adding too many adjuncts and beersmith not being able to take account for that in the prediction of its FG.

 

[tomaso]

Correction: By adjuncts I meant specialty grains like Crystal

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yeah, beersmith doesn't seem to account for non-fermentables in crystal when calculating final gravity. Having said that, you'd have to use a very high percentage of them to make a big difference.

It might be worth giving yeast nutrient a try - it's very cheap and definitely won't harm your beer.