High Gravity Sparging Question

[manoaction]

I haven't done a lot of high gravity brewing.

I'm using 25lbs of grain, and at a mash thickness of 1.25, that gives me 7.8 gal of mash and 3.4 gal of sparge water.

With such a low amount of sparge water compared to the mash water, should I repour the first couple gallons of the first runnings? Usually I repour about a gallon because of cloudiness, but in this case should I do more?

Does anyone have some tips for changes in fly sparge technique for high grav brewing?

 

[manoaction]

I swear I search before posting, but the related threads never fail to find good stuff.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/batch-sparging-high-gravity-beers-126050/

Further thoughts on fly vs. batch?

 

[imtrashed]

I'll be mashing about 20 lbs of grain tomorrow and plan for about 6 gallons of mash water, but I'm thinking I need closer to 9-10 gallons of sparge water. Where did you come up with 3.4 gallons for 25 lbs? I'm guessing one of us is way off, and I'd love to find out who before tomororow night.

 

[dcp27]

I'll be mashing about 20 lbs of grain tomorrow and plan for about 6 gallons of mash water, but I'm thinking I need closer to 9-10 gallons of sparge water. Where did you come up with 3.4 gallons for 25 lbs? I'm guessing one of us is way off, and I'd love to find out who before tomororow night.

if you sparged with 9-10 gallons you'd be boiling for quite a long time. the 3.4 gallons is to bring the OP to the proper pre-boil volume. like is mentioned in the linked post, you need to increase your boil time, increase your grain for lost efficiency, or add DME/sugar to account for it. I prefer bumping up the grain a bit and doing a partigyle

 

[imtrashed]

I don't have my recipe with me right now, but if I'm mashing 19-20 lbs of grain (call it 20) and starting with about 6.25 gallons mash water, roughly how much sparge water should I use assuming a single batch sparge? Doesn't need to be exact, since I'll have to go over things again tonight, but what would a ballpark be? Not too much AG experience, so any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[dcp27]

so you'll lose about 2.5gallons of your mash water to grain absorption, leaving you with 3.75 gallons for your 1st runnings. from there, your sparge water depends on your evaporation rate and dead space mostly. if you know what those are, you can figure out how much you need pre-boil to end at your desired batch size, then just subtract the 1st runnings from that and you have your sparge water. so say you have an evaporation rate of 1gal/hr and no dead space, your sparge water would be about 2.25 gallons for a 5gal batch with 60min boil, a bit higher if you use lots of hops.

unfortunately with big beers, there just isn't much room left for alot of sparging so you generally take about a 10% hit in efficiency, which is why i generally partigyle big beers so i dont waste all that extra sugar.

 

[manoaction]

So first.... This is the handy calculator that I'm using to arrive at my amounts for mash and sparge water. http://brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

Second... It seems like everyone is ok with dumping the first runnings back over the grain again to improve efficiency?

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Second... It seems like everyone is ok with dumping the first runnings back over the grain again to improve efficiency?

I would say, no. If you're have space issues there is a method to work with less space and improve efficiency.

1) Split your recipe in half.
2) Mash the first half and collect the first runnings in your kettle
3) Batch sparge to collect your second runnings and heat to strike temp.
4) Clear out spent grains from tun.
5) Use second runnings as your strike water for the second half of your recipe.
6) Batch sparge as usual.

Using the second runnings from the first half, as your strike water, works double-duty.

 

[TheBrewinator]

The option I took on my first really big beer works if you don't mind boiling longer than usual. I doughed in with 9 gallons for about 28 lbs of grain and did a sparge that put my pre boil volume at 10 gallons for a 6 gallon batch. I just boiled it down noting boil off rate to decide when to start my hop additions. If you have the time and pot space to do that, it would be another option, great for efficiency too, I hit 75% which put me way over my target gravity but that is ok cause its a RIS that I don't mind being stronger than planned.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't understand why anyone would waste their time doing a reiterative mash (mashing a second grain bill with wort rather than water). The sugar lost to absorption is even worse in that situation. The added time and energy expended could be used for a larger sparge and subsequent boil down if efficiency of that much concern.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

I don't understand why anyone would waste their time doing a reiterative mash (mashing a second grain bill with wort rather than water). The sugar lost to absorption is even worse in that situation. The added time and energy expended could be used for a larger sparge and subsequent boil down if efficiency of that much concern.

I agree that it's more work, but you'll notice that I explained that it is an option for those lacking the system space for a larger sparge. Also, you'll need to explain your reasoning for "even worse" sugar lost to absorption. btw, I think something similar is explained in Radical Brewing.

 

[imtrashed]

Not sure what the plan is for the OP, but I'll probably overshoot my preboil volume with more sparge water than I need and then boil down to about 6.5 before I start my 60 minute boil and additions.

 

[Brewtard16]

I just did 20 lbs over the weekend. i used 7.5 gallons to mash (i probably used closer to 8), and i sparged with 4 gallons but I broke that up into (2) 2 gallon batch sparges. 84% efficiency.

 

[manoaction]

Thanks for the feedback folks.

Brewtard, that sounds like really great efficiency.

My mash tun is huge, there is no worry at all about the space of it.

The only concerns are mash thickness (I don't want to go thicker than 1.25), and the fact that it makes the sparge amount so small. I was concerned that the grains wouldn't get a good rinsing.

I'm going to pour the first two gallons of first runnings back over the grain bed before I start with the sparging.

 

[imtrashed]

I just did 20 lbs over the weekend. i used 7.5 gallons to mash (i probably used closer to 8), and i sparged with 4 gallons but I broke that up into (2) 2 gallon batch sparges. 84% efficiency.

I did my 20 lbs last night with 6.25 gallons strike water and two 2 gallon sparges. Was actually over 6.25 gallons strike, since I didn't make my desired mash temp and had to add a little more hot water. Came away with more than enough volume and boiled down to 6.5 gallons before I started my 60 minute boil with additions. By starting with so much sweet wort and boiling down, I nailed my OG of 1.090. And I'm sure that plenty of stirring during mash and sparge also helped a good deal.

Thanks everyone for the input. (sorry if I've hijacked this thread, but my experience does directly relate)

 

[Brewtard16]

I did my 20 lbs last night with 6.25 gallons strike water and two 2 gallon sparges. Was actually over 6.25 gallons strike, since I didn't make my desired mash temp and had to add a little more hot water. Came away with more than enough volume and boiled down to 6.5 gallons before I started my 60 minute boil with additions. By starting with so much sweet wort and boiling down, I nailed my OG of 1.090. And I'm sure that plenty of stirring during mash and sparge also helped a good deal.

Thanks everyone for the input. (sorry if I've hijacked this thread, but my experience does directly relate)

Nice! I stirred a lot after adding my grains to mash, and after each adding sparge volume. I am sure that makes a huge difference. I also think the double batch sparge method makes a huge difference, cheers to Bobby M on that one. I think both of these details become more important as the grain bill increases, but are still important under any condition.

 

[broadbill]

I'm going to pour the first two gallons of first runnings back over the grain bed before I start with the sparging.

I'm sorry, but how exactly will an increased vorlauf/recirculation volume (that is what you are referring to, right?) help efficiency?

Sparing works to rinse grains according to the theory of osmosis. The grain bed has a high concentration of sugars. You add hot water that has a zero concentration of sugars. The sugar concentration between the grain bed and sparge water equilibrate, and sugars are removed from the grain bed and end up in the water. You drain the resulting equilibrated liquor, thus rinsing/sparging the grains.

Now lets do with your vorlauf liquor. You are starting with a pre-equilibrated grain bed and liquor interface. The concentration of sugar is the same between grain bed and liquor. Your idea is to pull off some of this liquor and simply but add it back to your grain bed. There is no osmotic difference between the liquor you add back and the grain bed, hence no re-equilibration/rinsing/sparging. Its a wasted effort.

 

[manoaction]

I suppose you're right. My last batch had a crummy effeciency and I suppose I've started grasping at straws.

 

[broadbill]

I suppose you're right. My last batch had a crummy effeciency and I suppose I've started grasping at straws.

Don't bother grasping at straws...assume that your efficiency will be crummy because its a high-gravity brew, and plan accordingly by either:

1. increasing your sparge volume to have adequate rinsing, and plan to increase your boil time (perhaps significantly)

or.

2. Adjust with DME. Its easy enough to do.

 

[imtrashed]

1. increasing your sparge volume to have adequate rinsing, and plan to increase your boil time (perhaps significantly)

This is what I did last night, since if I'm going to do an all-grain batch, I want it to be all grain. I forget when my boil started last night, but it was somewhere between 90 and 120 minutes, with hop additions beginning at 60 minutes. If you want to get all those sugars, and if you can handle the big boil volume and have the time, I think this is the way to go. I probably boiled off somewhere in the neighborhood of about 3 or 3.5 gallons total.

 

[manoaction]

I've used the boil off in the past before as well to good effect. I felt a little like I was taking a shortcut around doing my mash properly, like adding DME. That doesn't negate the fact that it works though.

 

[broadbill]

I guess I'm not a purist then....I go with the DME every time. I don't think there is a difference in quality of the final product, and I can think of better things to do with my time than watching a pot boil...but that is just me.

As far as "keeping it all-grain"...what about adding candi sugar to a Belgian or Dextrose to a Saison? Is it no longer all-grain then?

 

[Brewtard16]

I guess I'm not a purist then....I go with the DME every time. I don't think there is a difference in quality of the final product, and I can think of better things to do with my time than watching a pot boil...but that is just me.

As far as "keeping it all-grain"...what about adding candi sugar to a Belgian or Dextrose to a Saison? Is it no longer all-grain then?

At some point it has to matter, right? Does DME have the same profile as any given grain bill? maybe it is just a question of how much one is trying to make up for, with DME.

This is more of a question/comment.

 

[broadbill]

At some point it has to matter, right?

Only if you assume that all-grain is inherently better than using extract. It would be an interesting experiment to make two high-gravity worts, one brought to the proper OG by boiling, the other by DME....ferment and compare.

Does DME have the same profile as any given grain bill?

Of course not, but if I were to guess I would say the starting material for extra light DME is 2-row and not much else. Any sort of "profile-flavors" inherent with extract probably comes by the drying process.

maybe it is just a question of how much one is trying to make up for, with DME.

Let's say at 70% efficiency a given grain bill makes 5 gallons of 1.100 wort. So that is 500 gravity pts actual, 714 pts max.

Lets also say on your rig you only get 50% efficiency: that is 357 pts instead of 500 pts.

To get it up to 500 pts you need to add 143 pts worth of DME. At 42 pts/lb that is 3.4lbs of DME.

Lets next assume that grain bill is 20 lbs of grain (probably what you would need to get in the neighborhood of 1.100). That is 7.6% of the total fermentables as extract. Not much at all.

You might have to add much more if you are battling BOTH efficiency issues as well as capacity issues (can only fit so much grain into a MT).

 

[Brewtard16]

Only if you assume that all-grain is inherently better than using extract. It would be an interesting experiment to make two high-gravity worts, one brought to the proper OG by boiling, the other by DME....ferment and compare.




Of course not, but if I were to guess I would say the starting material for extra light DME is 2-row and not much else. Any sort of "profile-flavors" inherent with extract probably comes by the drying process.



Let's say at 70% efficiency a given grain bill makes 5 gallons of 1.100 wort. So that is 500 gravity pts actual, 714 pts max.

Lets also say on your rig you only get 50% efficiency: that is 357 pts instead of 500 pts.

To get it up to 500 pts you need to add 143 pts worth of DME. At 42 pts/lb that is 3.4lbs of DME.

Lets next assume that grain bill is 20 lbs of grain (probably what you would need to get in the neighborhood of 1.100). That is 7.6% of the total fermentables as extract. Not much at all.

You might have to add much more if you are battling BOTH efficiency issues as well as capacity issues (can only fit so much grain into a MT).

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.