High Gravity Brewing vs Brew Boss vs Another Electric Brewing Setup

[pretzelb]

Kals panels

Do you mean the one from the electric brewery which are around $2300 fully assembled? I assume most of the debate here has been around the EBC III panels at HG that run from $800 to $1000. Isn't there a comparison that falls in the same ballpark price? HG also seems to have panels for $350 to $500 as options.

Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing?

 

[brew-in]

What would be examples of better priced and quality panels that the non DIY person could trust?

Seems like you don't have an issue with people who don't want to make their own, and you know what counts as quality for parts and workmanship, but I don't recall seeing examples that you deem better or even reasonable.

If you think it's OK for someone to buy one of these pre-built then it would be immensely helpful to have recommendations on superior products.

Brew Boss Panels seem well made...Darin was able to answer all my electrical questions crisply.

Also never seen one in person but from the website and answers to my questions these look nice.

http://www.jaggerbushbrewing.com/BBR-10_p_63.html

reasonable price and I like that the guy shows you a picture of the inside on his site. Looking at the pict of the inside, the wiring looks neat....

 

[augiedoggy]

What would be examples of better priced and quality panels that the non DIY person could trust?

Seems like you don't have an issue with people who don't want to make their own, and you know what counts as quality for parts and workmanship, but I don't recall seeing examples that you deem better or even reasonable.

If you think it's OK for someone to buy one of these pre-built then it would be immensely helpful to have recommendations on superior products.

If I couldnt make my own I would have ordered one of the brumatic panels off ebay and called it a day... I know what I want to accomplish so I would have ordered the one I needed. I have seen others here on this forum do the same with no problems so..
The jaggerbush panels seem to be well made and are excellently priced...

Comparing kals top dollar component panel to a $150 diy special sold for $900 like the HG panel is comparing apples to oranges... I dont think all that is needed personally but he is honest and straight forward with offering DIY options and links... Kals panel has a lot more functionality and class going for it over the HG panel.

Lets keep in mind I did not even know what a pid was prior to researching before building mine...

 

[pretzelb]

If I couldnt make my own I would have ordered one of the brumatic panels off ebay and called it a day... I know what I want to accomplish so I would have ordered the one I needed. I have seen others here on this forum do the same with no problems so..
The jaggerbush panels seem to be well made and are excellently priced...

Comparing kals top dollar component panel to a $150 diy special sold for $900 like the HG panel is comparing apples to oranges... I dont think all that is needed personally but he is honest and straight forward with offering DIY options and links... Kals panel has a lot more functionality and class going for it over the HG panel.

Lets keep in mind I did not even know what a pid was prior to researching before building mine...

I agree on the apples and oranges comparison. I think it should also be said that there isn't a ton of similar products out there to compare, which I think is a big part of the debate. The HG unit for $999 seems similar to the Brumatic for $589. Jagger has one for $1295 but it seems to have more features than the other two so it's not a good comparison either.

The lack of similar items to compare makes it hard for a novice non DIY buyer to understand what is a decent price. You can almost always save money going the DIY route. But in a market that doesn't have tons of competition, it's hard to say when something is over priced. That's kind of what the market does on it's own.

Personally I'd love to see more competition and more options. With just my one post I found 2 or 3 other options that I didn't know existed.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree on the apples and oranges comparison. I think it should also be said that there isn't a ton of similar products out there to compare, which I think is a big part of the debate. The HG unit for $999 seems similar to the Brumatic for $589. Jagger has one for $1295 but it seems to have more features than the other two so it's not a good comparison either.

The lack of similar items to compare makes it hard for a novice non DIY buyer to understand what is a decent price. You can almost always save money going the DIY route. But in a market that doesn't have tons of competition, it's hard to say when something is over priced. That's kind of what the market does on it's own.

Personally I'd love to see more competition and more options. With just my one post I found 2 or 3 other options that I didn't know existed.

Yes good point,
what features does the $900 HG one have that the $289 jaggerbush one doesnt? Unless I'm missing something. all I can see is the HG one has an extra temp readout... easily accomplished with a thermometer.whether an analog or a $20 digital setup...
.. It still only seems to have actual element control for one heating element. and one pump.

I started with 2 pump/ two element control and added both a third pump and third element for my rims tube as I kept changing and improving on my setup... maybe a good reason to go modular like the jaggerbush panels easily allow.

the more I think about it the more appealing a "hosehead" system looks for the money.

 

[ingchr1]

What would be examples of better priced and quality panels that the non DIY person could trust?

What I like about the Brew-Boss is that it's programmable, along with the excellent customer support and continual product improvements. For example, they have some nice software improvements on the way: Post from Brew-Boss Thread

I use their controller with my two vessel system, but if I had it do all over again I'd seriously consider just getting their complete system with COFI.

 

[pretzelb]

What I like about the Brew-Boss is that it's programmable, along with the excellent customer support and continual product improvements. For example, they have some nice software improvements on the way: Post from Brew-Boss Thread

I use their controller with my two vessel system, but if I had it do all over again I'd seriously consider just getting their complete system with COFI.

I think the software aspect of the brew-boss is very under valued in this thread. Maybe it's not something that everyone wants but I can tell you a ton of work goes into something like that.

But the market decides on the actual worth of something. That software took a decent amount of work but if everyone would rather have knobs and switches instead of a tablet with some automation software then it doesn't matter how much work went into it.

 

[pretzelb]

Yes good point,
what features does the $900 HG one have that the $289 jaggerbush one doesnt? Unless I'm missing something. all I can see is the HG one has an extra temp readout... easily accomplished with a thermometer.whether an analog or a $20 digital setup...
.. It still only seems to have actual element control for one heating element. and one pump.

I started with 2 pump/ two element control and added both a third pump and third element for my rims tube as I kept changing and improving on my setup... maybe a good reason to go modular like the jaggerbush panels easily allow.

the more I think about it the more appealing a "hosehead" system looks for the money.

When it comes to value I think more consideration needs to be made to some of the more subtle features. Some of the high end / high quality panels come with read outs for volts and amps and have buttons that light up when the element is in use. I assume it doesn't cost much for the parts or the wiring but something like this probably makes the panel scream quality and high end. Meanwhile, another panel that lacks such features might suffer extra criticism for not having such features.

 

[augiedoggy]

When it comes to value I think more consideration needs to be made to some of the more subtle features. Some of the high end / high quality panels come with read outs for volts and amps and have buttons that light up when the element is in use. I assume it doesn't cost much for the parts or the wiring but something like this probably makes the panel scream quality and high end. Meanwhile, another panel that lacks such features might suffer extra criticism for not having such features.

My sub $300 panel has all that bling... your right its not expensive but takes time to wire up. Its totally not needed either. The pids have indicator lights on them. its nice to have though.

 

[ingchr1]

I think the software aspect of the brew-boss is very under valued in this thread.

Agreed, and since you can edit the steps to fit your process it really gives you the sense of something that's not pre-built. You have something that you can tinker with. A lot more than just dialing a knob, entering a setpoint or flipping a switch. In my case I developed an entire step list to fit my two vessel system.

 

[akthor]

Is there a step by step guide to building a control panel that someone with no electrical knowledge at all could use to build a panel?

 

[brew-in]

Is there a step by step guide to building a control panel that someone with no electrical knowledge at all could use to build a panel?

IMHO, without good electrical power circuit knowledge, I would not do it ...you are messing with 30+ amps at 240 volts and liquids....a potential deadly combination if not done correct.....

 

[brew-in]

Agreed, and since you can edit the steps to fit your process it really gives you the sense of something that's not pre-built. You have something that you can tinker with. A lot more than just dialing a knob, entering a setpoint or flipping a switch. In my case I developed an entire step list to fit my two vessel system.

X2 lots of work went into this classy controller....and it will be updated via software for some time to come....

 

[kal]

Is there a step by step guide to building a control panel that someone with no electrical knowledge at all could use to build a panel?

That was the intent of my control panel build instructions. Provide steps that anyone could follow. No need to understand schematics.

It start here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1

I've had many people email me telling me they had zero electrical experience before this and found the instructions easy to use. Some mentioned that the most they had ever done prior to this was screw in a lightbulb.

Kal

 

[augiedoggy]

Is there a step by step guide to building a control panel that someone with no electrical knowledge at all could use to build a panel?

Yes there are step by step threads... its not dangerous to build them if you follow directions and pay attention to what you doing ... and even if you dont and make a mistake, If you have fuses in your panel they or the miswired device just goes poof... You wont die or get zapped unless your handling the bare wires while they have power applied to them... some people are over cautios about everything they dont yet understand... You rarely learn anything if you avoid everything this way.

Fire can kill too can you be trusted to light a grill? just treat live electricity like fire and dont touch it...

 

[pretzelb]

Yes there are step by step threads... its not dangerous to build them if you follow directions and pay attention to what you doing ... and even if you dont and make a mistake, If you have fuses in your panel they or the miswired device just goes poof... You wont die or get zapped unless your handling the bare wires while they have power applied to them... some people are over cautios about everything they dont yet understand... You rarely learn anything if you avoid everything this way.

Fire can kill too can you be trusted to light a grill? just treat live electricity like fire and dont touch it...

I'm not sure how you can be over cautious when it comes to something that can kill you.

Not touching the wires isn't this issue for people like me. It's building something that could burn down your house if not done correctly. If the feedback on electrical issues was always as you say then you'd never see house fires from some electrical issue that happens after a period of time.

To use your analogy, it's not building a fire, it's like building a fireplace to hold a fire. Still not rocket science but lots of things can still go wrong.

 

[brew-in]

Yes there are step by step threads... its not dangerous to build them if you follow directions and pay attention to what you doing ... and even if you dont and make a mistake, If you have fuses in your panel they or the miswired device just goes poof... You wont die or get zapped unless your handling the bare wires while they have power applied to them... some people are over cautios about everything they dont yet understand... You rarely learn anything if you avoid everything this way.

Fire can kill too can you be trusted to light a grill? just treat live electricity like fire and dont touch it...

Okay, this will appear strong (and in fact is). I truly mean no disrespect in writing it. I just feel strongly the building of a 240 Volt 30+ amp controller is being miss-portrayed. First, who am I to be able to comment on this:

1) I have a Bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering
2) I have a master's Degree in Electrical Engineering
3) I just recently retired as the Chief Engineer of a large aircraft prototyping organization. I had technical cognizance over engineers, wiring and mechanical artisans, several wiring fabrication shops, two machine shops, aircraft hangars, etc. I was responsible for the technical excellence of over 100 aircraft prototype modifications a year.
4) I have designed power control circuits.
5)I have also seen, unfortunately, what can happen when mistakes are made with these levels of power.

I could go on but I think I have made my point. I am not one who does not "yet understand"... I completely understand what is involved...and here are my thoughts:

1) Someone, without electrical design/fabrication experience, building a control panel for 30+ Amps of 240 volts is dangerous and potentially life threatening.
2) IMHO it is irresponsible for anyone on this board to tell someone with no electrical experience they can safety build a high power electrical control system.
3) In the above post the explanations of "fuses" and/or miss-wired devises just going "poof", and not being a danger, is just ridiculous.
4) Also, the analogy to lighting a grill is nuts and shows the author is one of those folks that "don't yet understand"
5)Be very careful who you take electrical wiring advice from ....especially someone on the internet...remember you have no idea the validity of the info or the credentials of the person portraying themselves as an expert..This note of caution applies to my comments and thoughts also...

 

[itsnotrequired]

i'm a huge fan of diy but when folks tackle projects, they need to follow some simple steps

- research! read stuff, talk to people, etc.
- understand the risks. fire? shock? stuff falling?
- if you don't feel comfortable, don't do it

if any of the above isn't considered, don't bother tackling the project. and on the topic of research, know where the info is coming from and get second opinions. there is A LOT of bad info out there. when researching my sauna build, i came across this doozy:

http://lifehacker.com/5874798/how-to-hack-your-bathroom-into-a-home-sauna

cut up an old gas canister to make a wood burning stove to put in your bathroom and make it a sauna? wtf...

 

[augiedoggy]

Okay, this will appear strong (and in fact is). I truly mean no disrespect in writing it. I just feel strongly the building of a 240 Volt 30+ amp controller is being miss-portrayed. First, who an I to be able to comment on this:

1) I have a Bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering
2) I have a master's Degree in Electrical Engineering
3) I just recently retired as the Chief Engineer of a large aircraft prototyping organization. I had technical cognizance over engineers, wiring and mechanical artisans, several wiring fabrication shops, two machine shops, aircraft hangars, etc. I was responsible for the technical excellence of over 100 aircraft prototype modifications a year.
4) I have designed power control circuits.
5)I have also seen, unfortunately, what can happen when mistakes are made with these levels of power.

I could go on but I think I have made my point. I am not one who does not "yet understand"... I completely understand what is involved...and here are my thoughts:

1) Someone, without electrical design/fabrication experience, building a control panel for 30+ Amps of 240 volts is dangerous and potentially life threatening.
2) IMHO it is irresponsible for anyone on this board to tell someone with no electrical experience they can safety build a high power electrical control system.
3) In the above post the explanations of "fuses" and/or miss-wired devises just going "poof", and not being a danger, is just ridiculous.
4) Also, the analogy to lighting a grill is nuts and shows the author is one of those folks that "don't yet understand"
5)Be very careful who you take electrical wiring advice from ....especially someone on the internet...remember you have no idea the validity of the info or the credentials of the person portraying themselves as an expert..This applies to my comments and thoughts also...

I wasnt implying you were saying tha although when I reread it I can see how you thought that.. Usually though its those who have no knowledge of such things that discourage others from trying it...

I am not an electrical engineer. I do work with 240 and 380v equipment every week. installing and repairing these things on a regular basis.

I feel these control panels are not rocket science to build myself, You may have a different outlook. Its just a matter of being careful not to touch things inside while plugged in.

My 2 cents,
Yes 240v can kill if one isnt smart enough to understand what the difference between a hot voltage wire and a ground wire is or your not careful then this isnt a task for them but there really isnt much to it. You have two hot voltage wires (dont touch these ever while plugged in) and then a ground wire. instead of one hot wire and one neutral wire and a ground found in a 120v circuit.

While its not for everyone (neither is making beer) if one is handy and can follow directions they can certainly make their own... even if you pay an electrician to look it over and hook it up to power that first time.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure how you can be over cautious when it comes to something that can kill you.

Not touching the wires isn't this issue for people like me. It's building something that could burn down your house if not done correctly. If the feedback on electrical issues was always as you say then you'd never see house fires from some electrical issue that happens after a period of time.

To use your analogy, it's not building a fire, it's like building a fireplace to hold a fire. Still not rocket science but lots of things can still go wrong.

well take this into consideration... you dont run these things unattended (especially in the beginning) If it were wired wrong it will almost always pop the breaker instantly. if you do your research, use the correctly sized/rated wire and tighten your connections I dont really see the danger. you can use a meter to check your grounds before powering it up and ensure you wont electrocute yourself (wiring up a simple heating element is more dangerous in my opinion than building the panel)
Most electrical fires I have heard of were from people drawing too much power through extension cords or adapters.

MANY people here have built their own...
I suggest starting a thread and asking about it...

 

[pretzelb]

well take this into consideration... you dont run these things unattended (especially in the beginning) If it were wired wrong it will almost always pop the breaker instantly. if you do your research, use the correctly sized/rated wire and tighten your connections I dont really see the danger. you can use a meter to check your grounds before powering it up and ensure you wont electrocute yourself (wiring up a simple heating element is more dangerous in my opinion than building the panel)
Most electrical fires I have heard of were from people drawing too much power through extension cords or adapters.

MANY people here have built their own...
I suggest starting a thread and asking about it...

I don't say this to be mean but I think you take for granted what is easy to you.

To use an analogy, I've run many marathons but I'm very slow. I know people who are fast and finish in under 3 hours. I've seen these people often tell others how easy it is to run a marathon. Since I can do it I would agree that anyone can. However, I would not look at someone who never worked out and tell them it's easy. It would be foolish to say "all you need to do is train smart and hydrate". Like working with 240v, this kind of flippant advice could get you killed. The comments you make seem similar to saying "just train smart and hydrate".

Can anyone build these panels? Probably yes. Is it as easy as you think? No. You might as well tell that future runner to start his training with some local 5k races. Like my fast running friends, I just don't think you understand how difficult this could be for others. For running you might just end up injured with bad advice, but with electronics it could be worse if the adviser takes too much for granted.

And just because "many people have done it" doesn't have anything to do with it being easy or safe. That has to be the most flippant argument I've seen yet. It totally ignores aptitude or skill of those who "have done it". From what I've read so far, most builders had extensive prior knowledge of electronics. Those who didn't either had engineering backgrounds, or at the very least had a knack for it. And even then they spent countless hours reading and researching. I have yet to see a post from Joe Average who struggled to learn and ended up succeeding.

You aren't incorrect in saying that anyone can do it. Where your words strike me as dangerous is how you trivialize the effort or caution needed for such a project. I'm sure you don't do it to cause harm, but I think your cavalier attitude could discourage proper caution.

It's great you find this easy and you have talent for digesting how it all works. I'm actually jealous. I just don't think you realize how easy it is for you and how dangerous it can be for others who aren't as naturally talented in understanding it. Like running marathons, encouraging others is great. However it's negligent to do so without also coaching proper caution to avoid injury.

 

[mxstar21]

First, if you don't feel comfortable doing it, don't build it. While there is some risk building a similiar panel to the HG panel, it won't burn your house or kill you if you follow the instructions and build it properly and then test it before energizing it.

The panel build difficulty depends on which panel build you are talking about. Kal's panel is probably harder for somebody with no knowledge, but can be built by somebody who is reasonably crafty/handy with this type of thing.

Electric Brewing Supply sells DIY kits and pre built kits in different vareities similiar to Kals. They can be a little pricey, but come with many options and different price points. They also sell DIY kits.

The HG panels or any of the BIAB panels can be easily made by almost anyone who can follow instructions. Using 240 volts and 30 amps as being so dangerous is nonsense. You can die from less than 1 amp on a 120 volt circuit. There is no reason you should be inside a panel of the HG variety or any of the others while it is energized unless you are troubleshooting it, which you clearly should not be doing.

Yes, if you get 240 volts at 30 amps across your heart you will die. If you do that while building the simple panel, it is amazing you have lived this long. If you don't feel comfortable don't do it. Auggiedoggie is correct though that most people can safely build a similiar design.

 

[mxstar21]

Also, please explain how you could get shocked building one of the HG panels or "electrocuted." It would also be really hard to get shocked using one since the enclosure is non-mettalic for the majority of people for those builds.

Please note when I say HG, I refferencing the more simple BIAB panels, not the automated panels like Kal or Electric Brewing Supply (www.ebrewsupply.com).

 

[pretzelb]

cut up an old gas canister to make a wood burning stove to put in your bathroom and make it a sauna? wtf...

I glanced at that article and couldn't help but wonder if the editor was on vacation or high as a kite when s/he let that go to print.

 

[augiedoggy]

Also, please explain how you could get shocked building one of the HG panels or "electrocuted." It would also be really hard to get shocked using one since the enclosure is non-mettalic for the majority of people for those builds.

Please note when I say HG, I refferencing the more simple BIAB panels, not the automated panels like Kal or Electric Brewing Supply (www.ebrewsupply.com).

Honestly this is why I was surprised to see someone with electrical background making the comments.

I supposed that hypothectically if a person used a non grounded metal enclosure and didnt follow directions and wired one of the hot leads to the enclosure somehow... But then you would have to have made more than one mistake and really be bad at understanding things and following directions. this would also be more unlikely if you used a GFCI as everyone should be.
I'll agree to say its not for everyone... (neither is changing a lightbulb surprisingly ) but the average handy person could build their own as I did myself with no knowledge of ssrs or pids per say beforehand. I did understand basic wiring and schemetics as well as how switches and relays work since I do deal with this stuff at work as a field engineer.

In a nut shell theres no way you need to have an electrical background to build one safely and correctly and thers MANY MANY threads here full of builds to prove that already. Some people (not all) just tell themselves its too complicated so they can justify buying one... Some dont have the ability...

 

[itsnotrequired]

i don't believe there was an objection to folks during their own electrical work. the objection was to statements such as 'it isn't a big deal' or 'there is a circuit breaker so don't worry about it'. these are disingenuous statements that may give the novice a false sense of security or not respect the dangers of electricity. they are totally manageable dangers with the proper precautions, etc. but it is a danger nonetheless.

 

[augiedoggy]

i don't believe there was an objection to folks during their own electrical work. the objection was to statements such as 'it isn't a big deal' or 'there is a circuit breaker so don't worry about it'. these are disingenuous statements that may give the novice a false sense of security or not respect the dangers of electricity. they are totally manageable dangers with the proper precautions, etc. but it is a danger nonetheless.

Well thats not what I was trying to say...

 

[itsnotrequired]

I glanced at that article and couldn't help but wonder if the editor was on vacation or high as a kite when s/he let that go to print.

when researching my basement brewery build, i came across this doozy about how to attach frp to drywall. the comments rule...

 

[steveoatley]

when researching my basement brewery build, i came across this doozy about how to attach frp to drywall. the comments rule...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSD70-Je0KI

Having just installed 6 panels of FRP this past week on my Brewery Build

Yup - that guy is a complete idiot.

Every OTHER video i found, all other info i found on Google, even the Manufactures instructions - explain that that guy is WRONG.

Remarkably -- if you do it correctly, it goes very fast & easy.

my 2 cents
S

= But that doesn't mean I can read one of PJ's diagrams, and not electrocute myself - building my own panel.
= I still would rather buy a Panel from someone who knows what they are doing, than risk great bodily harm..
( i have gotten bitten before by the Electric Voltage God )

 

[itsnotrequired]

Having just installed 6 panels of FRP this past week on my Brewery Build

Yup - that guy is a complete idiot.

Every OTHER video i found, all other info i found on Google, even the Manufactures instructions - explain that that guy is WRONG.

Remarkably -- if you do it correctly, it goes very fast & easy.

when i saw the cost of frp adhesive, i got curious if there was a cheaper way. once i saw all the manufacturers, professionals, etc. recommending it, it became a no-brainer. i'm already dropping $25 a panel, why cheap out on how they get attached?