Hey, what a Surprise, Another One Finished High!

[Evan!]

I can't f*cking stand this. I just want my goddamned beers to finish like they're supposed to. Stupid lazy bastard yeast. I brewed a big RIS on Saturday morning, mashed at 154 or so, ended up with 1.092 OG. Racked it onto a notty cake from a 1.047 OG bitter, and had activity in 30 or 45 minutes. Within a couple hours it was almost blowing off. I left for a day, came back, and the bastard had blown off quite a bit into the bucket. And the krausen had dropped. And the airlock activity had ceased. And the SG was...1.040! I mean, come the f*ck on. I did everything right, I oxygenated thoroughly, I had an adequate cell count for a big beer like this, and I still end up with this horsesh*t. 1.040? Are you kidding me?! Is it possible to actually blow off most of the viable yeast?

So what now? Should I make another notty culture with a starter and pitch that? First the saison, now this...I'm none too happy with these damn yeasts lately.

 

[bradsul]

There should still be lots of yeast in the fermenter, you have tried giving it a swirl to get them back into suspension?

 

[e lo]

Sorry, man. That sucks. I had two batches in a row do that to me over the winter. Frustrating as all hell.

 

[Evan!]

There should still be lots of yeast in the fermenter, you have tried giving it a swirl to get them back into suspension?

yeah, there is a very large cake settling down, and yeah, I whirlpooled it this morning with my CPVC kettle measurer. We'll see what happens.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would seriously look at that thermometer and make sure it's dead on. I think 154 is too high already for such a big beer, but if you were off by 1 or 2 degrees, it could be even worse.

If you'd had fermenting issues many times, I'm highly suspect of your mash temp.

 

[FSR402]

Two beers in a row, did your thermometer go wacked on you?

 

[Evan!]

Two beers in a row, did your thermometer go wacked on you?

Nah---the Saison yeast pooped out, and so I racked it on a Wit cake, and bam, it got a new krausen and fermented it out fine. My thermo is NIST certified, and i also double-check it with my analog one here and there, so it's not my thermo. Not only that, but I mashed the Saison @ 148, and the RIS @ 154, so even if the thermo was reading low, the saison would still be in the range.

 

[mr x]

Maybe you did blow too much of the yeast out. Wyeast had mentioned to me that this was possible, especially on big beer.

 

[Evan!]

Maybe you did blow too much of the yeast out. Wyeast had mentioned to me that this was possible, especially on big beer.

Really? Hmmmm...so yeah, maybe I'll make a nice starter with some new Notty and see what that does.

It's definitely not my thermometer, unless somehow I have 2 NIST certified digital thermos and one analog thermo that are all reading low, and all reading the same amount off. You tell me the probability of that...

 

[the_bird]

Fermentation temperatures?..... I think you said you ramped the Belgian, didn't you?

You know the first thing I would do? Brew a small, session beer (special bitter, APA, something like that... a 1.050-ish beer without a lot of extras) and see if you're still having problems. Start by seeing if it's an issue with ALL the beers that you make, or if it's something specific that you're doing on the "fancy" recipes.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

For the blow-off problem... I suggest everyone start using Fermcap-S. I think that stuff could be the best thing since sliced bread (or beer). No blow-off tubes or messes, more viable yeast in solution, possibly better head retention and fuller body... sounds good to me.

Sorry about the RIS, that is sitting at only about 56% apparent, so it should have a good long way to go. Good Luck!!!

 

[PseudoChef]

I would just give it time. It's only been 2 days, dude.

My 1.114 Dark Strong took two weeks to ferment out.

 

[mr x]

Really? Hmmmm...so yeah, maybe I'll make a nice starter with some new Notty and see what that does.

It's definitely not my thermometer, unless somehow I have 2 NIST certified digital thermos and one analog thermo that are all reading low, and all reading the same amount off. You tell me the probability of that...

I have made a RIS with one pack of Notty, so I know it should have finished that beer. Although if I were to do it again, I would have used 2 packs.

 

[TexLaw]

I have no personal experience with Nottingham yeast, but there are very few yeasts (if any) that will just fully attenuate a 1.092 beer on their own. The brewer needs to get in there to help out by rousing, repitching, and maybe ramping up temperatures. I would actually be pretty happy to get all the way down to 1.040 in just a couple of days, but I would also know that it is time for me to start rocking the carboy to keep the party going.

And, I do not think it is your mashing temperatures at all. You just have to husband your yeast through this. Fermenting a 1.092 beer is like the Iron Man Triathelon for yeast.

And, yes, you can blowoff a bunch of yeast, leaving a small, tired population for the rest of the work. You can fix that by repitching fresh yeast, or you can avoid it with Fermcap-S/foam control. I like the latter. It is cheaper than repitching.

And, Bird, when did 1.050 beers become "small, session" beers? Damn, son!:rockin:


TL

 

[landhoney]

... there are very few yeasts (if any) that will just fully attenuate a 1.092 beer on their own. The brewer needs to get in there to help out by rousing, repitching, and maybe ramping up temperatures.

I've used several that have had no problem doing this, a healthy starter and OG's well above 1.092 got into the teens without any of the methods you suggest. I wouldn't disagree with you about possibly needing to employ these methods, but your statement that 'few..(if any)' will 'fully' attenuate a 1.092 OG beer has not been the case in my experience. I'm not talking about 'wild' yeast either, but rather 3787, wlp500, Scottish, Nottingham, British Ale, etc.

I do agree with Psuedochef that it may just need more time, 2-days is not long. Unless all activity has stopped......... ?

 

[PseudoChef]

Exactly landhoney. And activity, as we should know by now, shouldn't be monitored by airlock bubbling.

I pitched my Dark Strong onto half a cake of WLP500 and I don't even oxygenate with pure O2. Steady 70 degrees and it went from 1.114 to 1.021. I think it just might be crappy yeast in your case.

 

[Beerthoven]

Evan!, I had problems with high finishing gravities, too, until I lowered my mash temps and started with O2. I know you already do these things. So, I'm just gonna throw this out there...why not try a single infusion mash next time instead of the multi-step rest you normally do? I'm not a wort scientist and this may be completely off base, but the malts we use are highly modified and best suited to single infusions. Maybe the multi-step mashing is behind this? Its the only thing I can think of that you do differently.

 

[Evan!]

I would just give it time. It's only been 2 days, dude.

My 1.114 Dark Strong took two weeks to ferment out.

Except the krausen has dropped and the co2 offgassing is pretty much done. I'm thinking that a new notty starter will be the way out of this one.

 

[Evan!]

Evan!, I had problems with high finishing gravities, too, until I lowered my mash temps and started with O2. I know you already do these things. So, I'm just gonna throw this out there...why not try a single infusion mash next time instead of the multi-step rest you normally do? I'm not a wort scientist and this may be completely off base, but the malts we use are highly modified and best suited to single infusions. Maybe the multi-step mashing is behind this? Its the only thing I can think of that you do differently.

If 20 minutes at 133f is creating unfermentables, then I guess I don't know nothing about no brewin! And I have plenty of beers that finish out just fine with the multi-step. I dunno, given the amount of crap in my blowoff bucket and the fact that I do believe the level of the wort is a solid inch lower than when I started, I'm thinking I'll chalk this one up to blowing off much of the more viable yeast into the bucket. I might be wrong, but it can't hurt to make a little Notty starter and see what happens.

My other "problem" is that it's been busy lately, and with my last 2 batches, I've had to leave town during fermentation, so I cannot monitor it. Luckily, the Saison problem was fixed by pitching onto my Wit cake---which subsequently finished out in the right range---but I don't have another cake to dump this RIS onto...I doubt the Saison yeast would like it very much, and I'd like to harvest that stuff anyway.

So, I roused the yeast and tonight, unless I see any activity, I will make a notty starter and see what I can do.

 

[Beerthoven]

If 20 minutes at 133f is creating unfermentables, then I guess I don't know nothing about no brewin! And I have plenty of beers that finish out just fine with the multi-step. I dunno, given the amount of crap in my blowoff bucket and the fact that I do believe the level of the wort is a solid inch lower than when I started, I'm thinking I'll chalk this one up to blowing off much of the more viable yeast into the bucket. I might be wrong, but it can't hurt to make a little Notty starter and see what happens.

Yeah, I was just grasping at straws with the multi-step suggestion. It occured to me so I thought I would mention it.

It sounds like your yeast may have blown themselves out of the water.



I see you are planning a XXX Old Ale. I've gotten interested in Old Ales recently and would like to do at least one more this year (my winter warmer is based on an Old Ale). Maybe when you're ready to do that you could post it?

 

[TexLaw]

My yeast must not like me as much as some of you.


TL

 

[the_bird]

My yeast must not like me as much as some of you.


TL

What do you mean? I think your yeast like you a LOT more than we like you.

 

[ColoradoXJ13]

You may want to look into water conditions too. I was having similar problems, and my theory was chlorine in the water. When I was heating up mash water, it smelled like a pool. I started off boiling the mash water for 15 min, then letting it cool to strike temp. That was adding way too much time to my brew days, so I bought a $25 brita filter that screws onto the faucet in my sink, seems to work well.

 

[TexLaw]

LOL. Thanks for the reassurance, Bird.

Of course, I meant that my yeast doesn't like me as much as some others' yeast likes them, but I guess I'll just be going, anyhow.


TL

 

[PseudoChef]

Except the krausen has dropped and the co2 offgassing is pretty much done. I'm thinking that a new notty starter will be the way out of this one.

Krausen on mine dropped after about 4 days but continued to ferment v-e-r-y slowly. It barely bubbled, in other words.

I'm not saying it's still going because you have a better feel for it, but there's still a possibility that it's still fermenting.

 

[landhoney]

LOL. Thanks for the reassurance, Bird.
Of course, I meant that my yeast doesn't like me as much as some others' yeast likes them, but I guess I'll just be going, anyhow.
TL

If it helps, I take mine to the park with me.

 

[Evan!]

Yeah, I was just grasping at straws with the multi-step suggestion. It occured to me so I thought I would mention it.

It sounds like your yeast may have blown themselves out of the water.



I see you are planning a XXX Old Ale. I've gotten interested in Old Ales recently and would like to do at least one more this year (my winter warmer is based on an Old Ale). Maybe when you're ready to do that you could post it?

Yeah, will-do. ohiobrewtus and I are working on a joint recipe---we both read the old ale chapter in DGB and I think we have a good handle on it. We'll probably do the same grain/hop bill and use different yeast strains, since I have an Essex platinum strain and I think he's gonna use a british dry ale strain.

You may want to look into water conditions too. I was having similar problems, and my theory was chlorine in the water. When I was heating up mash water, it smelled like a pool. I started off boiling the mash water for 15 min, then letting it cool to strike temp. That was adding way too much time to my brew days, so I bought a $25 brita filter that screws onto the faucet in my sink, seems to work well.

Well, if this were the case, I'd have this problem more often...no, my water isn't that bad, and I don't smell chlorine when I heat it up. I do filter it through an RV filter, though.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Are you checking for full conversion in your mash?

 

[Evan!]

Are you checking for full conversion in your mash?

Oh yeah, always!

 

[Evan!]

Well, I pitched in a nice little notty starter and I've seen a little more activity over the past 2 days. Checked the SG and it's at 1.028. 67% attenuation ain't great, but it's better than 54%! I guess I shouldn't expect much more that 67%, considering that 23% of the grain bill was adjuncts and I mashed at 154/155ºf. It tastes really really good, though, and my 888 RIS finished at 1.029 from 1.088, so I'm already doing better on this one.

I think that next time I do a big beer like this, I'll mash at 149º and see how much of a difference it makes. There's so much to consider, but I guess I should have paid more attention to my adjunct percentages. Though, despite what JZ says, I like my IS's to finish a bit on the high side. 1.040 was silly, but 1.028 should be just fine. I guess I'll rouse the cake once more, then add some sanitized oak chips and let it sit for another week.