HERMS with very little silicone tubing

[Bobby_M]

Just a little build porn for ya's. Have you noticed how much hose is required for many of the big system builders' HERMS systems? It's like their compensating for something. This 15G x 3 HERMS build has a grand total of 6 feet of silicone tubing and it runs through all the required port movements with no sag. A hose comes nowhere near touching the floor. The only hose missing is the one that would connect the chiller output to the fermenter, but that comes in at the end.

 

[lumpher]

 

[day_trippr]

lols! We're gonna throw you to the German LoDO folks for that.
How much did those three center drains and all the rest of the bling cost to avoid a bit of silicone?

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

None of the equipment choices were specifically to avoid silicone. It's just that when you put everything in the right places, the tubing requirement just shrinks down naturally. Nothing in the build is for the hell of spending money, but has a practical purpose (except for maybe the SS controller enclosure). The bottom drains for example, let you clean every vessel in place never needing to lift the kettle off the table. Not only that, but the pumps basically just prime themselves no matter how many times the heads might suck air in.

The cost of the system is pretty significant though, since you asked. Heavy duty rolling equipment stand, SS controller, 3 vessels, all cables and probes, Two pumps, Spike Counterflow Chiller. $7K.

The cold side with table, two jacketed Brewbuilt CFs, penguin glycol chiller, plumbing and rapt controllers is another $4K. It's the second most expensive build in all one shot that we've done. At the very least, the system cost is rather commensurate to the value of the house it's getting delivered to. IOW, no one is going to being going hungry due to the frivolous hobby purchase.

 

[day_trippr]

I get the optimized layout - my 3v2p is set up the same. Other than swapping BK and HLT (righty vs lefty?) I'd expect most single tier rigs are set up the same. But mine does use ~20' of your finest 1/2" silicone instead of bling, obviously cost hella less - and is prettier! Gotta love those 20 gallon G1s!

Cheers!

 

[SonomaBrewer]

Cool stuff. Bobby I assume you move the QD from the HERMS input connection to the BK input when you run off the mash? How do you sparge?

EDIT -- Nvm !! Just watched the video you added. Love it.

 

[Deadalus]

Certainly pretty and parsimonious!

Five hoses is the minimum for a 3 vessel HERMS with 2 pumps. I'll have to watch the video, so I may miss something covered there or it may be stated already. I can transfer to a QD on the unitank with one of the five, specifically a wort pump hose. The wort pump hoses have to be sized in length for the longest needs of the three hoses. I need to CIP, recirculate through the CFC for whirlpooling, and recirculate the mash through the HERMS coil. I replaced hoses recently for my own system. I got most of the tubing from you at Brewhardware. The stiffer hoses I bought work nice BTW!

Pros and Cons I see as far as placements.

Pros
The mid-level HLT return is a good choice. Mine is up higher so that adds some tubing for me.
Under table top placement of the pumps shorten runs, particularly with those bottom drains.
The wort pump can go anywhere between the HLT and BK but I think the middle placement allows the shortest tubing for that hose.

Cons
The water pump could be located closer to the HLT. Perhaps the mounting method played a part in placement.
The long sweep elbows probably don't offer much different resistance to a bend in the tubing, but they do have barbs so could add resistance vs a tubing sweep 90.
The regular elbows do add resistance. They are harder to clean with a brush too.

Mount the CFC under the table top and that would shorten hoses. Mine hangs down. I do need a sixth hose for CIP so that I can run through both the HERMS coil and the CFC. I don't have my pumps in optimal locations as I use a shelving system underneath. I have a tee on the wort output of my CFC and the way I needed to configure a thermometer there adds considerable length as the tubing has do a 180 in order to return to the whirlpool. There's a tee and I wanted to look down at the dial. I converted my keggles from a gas fired setup, and some ports were already existing and weren't done by me. I'd like to get a table a foot shorter and then I might look to improve the placements on some of these. Just over 15' on mine, so nice job keeping the runs short!

 

[Bobby_M]

Certainly pretty and parsimonious!

Five hoses is the minimum for a 3 vessel HERMS with 2 pumps. I'll have to watch the video, so I may miss something covered there or it may be stated already. I can transfer to a QD on the unitank with one of the five, specifically a wort pump hose. The wort pump hoses have to be sized in length for the longest needs of the three hoses. I need to CIP, recirculate through the CFC for whirlpooling, and recirculate the mash through the HERMS coil. I replaced hoses recently for my own system. I got most of the tubing from you at Brewhardware. The stiffer hoses I bought work nice BTW!

The decision to not repurpose any of the hot side hoses was just due to the fermenters being about 8 feet across the room so having a 10ft purpose made hose for that transfer made sense rather than to coil it up for its use on this rig earlier in the brew day.

Pros
The mid-level HLT return is a good choice. Mine is up higher so that adds some tubing for me.

This placement does work well, the whirlpool exit on the HLT is tipped up so most of the return ends up on the top area of the column. In the boil kettle it's high enough that you can peak in there to observe the flow rate of the sparge though with the flow meter on the sparge water it's less important.

Under table top placement of the pumps shorten runs, particularly with those bottom drains.
The wort pump can go anywhere between the HLT and BK but I think the middle placement allows the shortest tubing for that hose.

It also was an easy choice to mount to the support box/rail under the table top. I used rivet nuts there.

Cons
The water pump could be located closer to the HLT. Perhaps the mounting method played a part in placement.

Primarily an aesthetic choice to keep both pumps centered between the kettles. If that wasn't a concern at all, and if the throttling valves weren't built in to the pump, one could literally clamp the pump input flange to the bottom drain ferrule for no tubing and one less butterfly valve. Aesthetics were important to this customer.

The long sweep elbows probably don't offer much different resistance to a bend in the tubing, but they do have barbs so could add resistance vs a tubing sweep 90.
The regular elbows do add resistance. They are harder to clean with a brush too.

I've never brushed the inside of fittings as it seems my PBW and occasional citric acid CIPs clean everything without mechanical help. A few of the choices were to make the hose go a certain way to keep it from sticking out in the workspace, or away from a valve handle.

Mount the CFC under the table top and that would shorten hoses.

Wasn't much room for it with the bottom drains. I could have slide all items over about 6" but symmetry would be all off.

Mine hangs down. I do need a sixth hose for CIP so that I can run through both the HERMS coil and the CFC. I don't have my pumps in optimal locations as I use a shelving system underneath. I have a tee on the wort output of my CFC and the way I needed to configure a thermometer there adds considerable length as the tubing has do a 180 in order to return to the whirlpool. There's a tee and I wanted to look down at the dial. I converted my keggles from a gas fired setup, and some ports were already existing and weren't done by me. I'd like to get a table a foot shorter and then I might look to improve the placements on some of these. Just over 15' on mine, so nice job keeping the runs short!

Still looks good. I don't blame you for not watching the video. It's 21 minutes of rambling and a hand held phone shake cam.

 

[Deadalus]

I was just a little too busy earlier I'll give it a look! Those box rails are part of the table top? I have something like that and I attached my CFC to it. I totally get the aesthetics concerns. I would have put the water pump that way too. Seems like the spacing worked out well too as far as the box rails and the three vessels.

About once a year I break down the fittings to the valves and then every 2 years I'll take all the weldless fittings off too. I end up with a little gunk here and there and I CIP. I haven't used citric acid though yet and I may add that in. Minor changes I have made along the way I have added in and removed elbows. They bug me when I have had them in front of other fittings and then I can't get a brush in there. Pickup tubes too can be hard to get past. A big bottom exit drain is appealing for that reason, along with the TC to take it apart a little easier. Having to completely trust the CIP is fine since I have to for the HERMS coil and CFC but I am happier when I can get a brush inside. At some point I would like to solder the bulkheads, maybe TC even for the BK. (You did my element ports already.)

I roll my X2s (7gal) over but I don't like doing that actually as the floor slopes. They project off the left side corner at 90 dgrees and then the glycol chiller on the end. I can't switch the vessel order, it wouldn't work smoothly, so I probably will do the same thing and get a long hose for transfers. Can't put the fermenters to the right, tool racks are over there.

 

[Deadalus]

Ok I watched the video. Very informative regarding 3 vessel HERMS. It looked like you did it all in one go too. Wasn't too shaky and you moved from point to point well, especially since you had to imagine the brew cycle while filming and talking. Covered the sample valve and I had been wondering what that blue cord and tee were for over by the CFC. Those Brew Buddies are nice panels, interesting about saving a little time with the BK heating the strike water while the rest of the HLT heats up. I just have two probes, both on the out valves, one on the HLT and one on the MT. I had never thought about sending the sparge water through the HERMS coil, good tip. I have my own autosparge built. It's a float valve but it has NPT threads instead of a barb. Also brass lead free because I could not find a SS one with NPT threads facing the right way. I put a QD on that valve output. I can switch in a SS Brewtech manifold for mash recirculation, then I take that out and use a Phil's fly sparger (rotating brass arm). One problem I consistently ran into was that when the autosparge cuts off the flow of sparge water to the mash tun, there is no longer recirculation in the HLT. Since my probe is on the tee out of the HLT, the temp reading becomes inaccurate as the flow is static. This will spike the temp in the HLT. If I remember to turn off the heat to the HLT, I invariably forget to turn it back on, so the sparge water temp drops in that scenario. A solution I implemented was a 3-way valve (T) at the HLT whirlpool port (not an L-type). With that, water can recirculate back to the HLT and also can be used to sparge without the flow stopping at the HLT temp probe.

On a six gallon batch, I wouldn't say I lose any time being unable to fire the BK (30 amp system) while fly sparging as that is slow but the temperature ramp up in the BK is fast. I can turn off the HLT close to the end and fire the BK. Maybe a little time on a ten gallon batch. On a 15 gallon batch, nice to have the Brew Buddy!

 

[Bobby_M]

Those Brew Buddies are nice panels, interesting about saving a little time with the BK heating the strike water while the rest of the HLT heats up.

I don't find a huge benefit to dual element cable 50 amp setups because as long as you fill the night before and turn the heat on the very first thing you do that morning, you're ready to dough in by the time you weigh out the salts, mill the grain, and get a cup of coffee. Or, alternatively the DSPR320 brain can be programmed to fire up an hour before your alarm clock rings.

One problem I consistently ran into was that when the autosparge cuts off the flow of sparge water to the mash tun, there is no longer recirculation in the HLT. Since my probe is on the tee out of the HLT, the temp reading becomes inaccurate as the flow is static. This will spike the temp in the HLT. If I remember to turn off the heat to the HLT, I invariably forget to turn it back on, so the sparge water temp drops in that scenario. A solution I implemented was a 3-way valve (T) at the HLT whirlpool port (not an L-type). With that, water can recirculate back to the HLT and also can be used to sparge without the flow stopping at the HLT temp probe.

This is primarily why I install the probes directly into the vessels. If the pumps are off, it's still somewhat accurate. I like the idea of a bypass loop like that to keep it stirred. The side benefit is some of the pump pressure is relieved and the float valve doesn't get jumpy.

 

[DavidWood2115]

lols! We're gonna throw you to the German LoDO folks for that.
How much did those three center drains and all the rest of the bling cost to avoid a bit of silicone?

If the concern is O2 pickup during mash recirculation, you would be better off replacing the silicone hoses with Tygon-A-60-F or Tygon-A-60-F-IB (fiber reinforced for higher pressure). The permeability of silicone is ~30 times greater than Tygon-A-60-F (6.2*10^-8 vs 2*10^-9).

Does it matter?
For a 60 minute, 10 gallon mash, with Bobby's very short 4.5' recirculation loop (estimated from the photo), this is the difference between 272 PPB of O2 vs. less than 9 PPB of O2. With silicone tubing, the recirculation loop alone contributes ~25% of the LODO recommended 1ppm.

Does it really matter?
I don't know. Tygon-A-60-F is even pricier than good quality silicone, running $~10/ft (and a minimum purchase of 10'). But given how much stainless is in that rig, an extra ~$70 for Tygon is in the noise.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's not for oxygen. It's just pragmatic.

 

[DonT]

Just a little build porn for ya's. Have you noticed how much hose is required for many of the big system builders' HERMS systems? It's like their compensating for something. This 15G x 3 HERMS build has a grand total of 6 feet of silicone tubing and it runs through all the required port movements with no sag. A hose comes nowhere near touching the floor. The only hose missing is the one that would connect the chiller output to the fermenter, but that comes in at the end.

View attachment 858528

Bobby, what is the piece coming off the sparge port on the mash tun, is that a filter? Nvrmnd... Blichmann flow meter

 

[Deadalus]

I don't find a huge benefit to dual element cable 50 amp setups because as long as you fill the night before and turn the heat on the very first thing you do that morning, you're ready to dough in by the time you weigh out the salts, mill the grain, and get a cup of coffee. Or, alternatively the DSPR320 brain can be programmed to fire up an hour before your alarm clock rings.


This is primarily why I install the probes directly into the vessels. If the pumps are off, it's still somewhat accurate. I like the idea of a bypass loop like that to keep it stirred. The side benefit is some of the pump pressure is relieved and the float valve doesn't get jumpy.

Tthat's pretty much how I approach starting up. Although I have read it is ok to condition and mill the grain the night before, I still just do that at the start. Between the water salts, breakfast, and milling, it's usually warmed up except when I occasionally have unplugged the HLT and forgotten! I also heard you at the end when you mentioned brewing twice in a day, same sentiment here! The price on the 50 amps didn't seem too much different however. For a bigger system, I think there's a point where adding a second element to a vessel would be useful. I don't know the size that's commonly done for though. Besides using the second element to fire the BK during a slow sparge, one place it would be helpful to me would be being able to heat up cleaning water for CIP. I use the last of the HLT water to clean the MT, which is done by hand, not CIP ball. So I heat up water in the BK then run the CIP. I only have a cold fill near my brew station. I could run a hot over there as an alternative to speed that up. And while I sometimes collect hot water from chilling I haven't used it much to clean with, just stored it instead.

Bypass loop is a much shorter way to explain that valve, thanks! The pressure does drop. I'm really attached to my Phil's sparge arm but could just as easily leave the SS Brewtech manifold there I'm sure if the three way valve wasn't in use. The sparge arm drops to a very slow spin when the bypass loop is open. In fact, I need to tune it up a little as it almost stops. I'm not sure the water would go all the way on the manifold as it is open ended on the tubes. The Phil's is a smaller diameter tube.

Pros and cons to different probe locations. I liked how you were using the MT PID to measure two probes, since it's passive as far as firing elements. I often don't even bother to set it, just use it to read the MT temp.

 

[Bobby_M]

For a bigger system, I think there's a point where adding a second element to a vessel would be useful. I don't know the size that's commonly done for though.

Absolutely, especially considering the heavy lifting being done in the HLT for step mashes. Raising 14 gallons of water and an equal amount of mash takes a lot of energy. One beneficial mod to that control panel would be the selection of "which" two elements get to fire. Two in the HLT and one in the Boil where any two can be run at the same time. I'd much rather fire up 11,000 watts in the HLT and passively heat the strike water via the HERMS loop because it's less work and already in the proper configuration for the entire mash with no hose changes.

Pros and cons to different probe locations. I liked how you were using the MT PID to measure two probes, since it's passive as far as firing elements. I often don't even bother to set it, just use it to read the MT temp.

There's definitely no perfect probe location with only pros. In theory, the best location for the HLT controller would be the dead center of the mash because it would do whatever is necessary to make the mash exactly the temp you want, but it is subject to a lot of overshoot (which would be made worse the closer to the bottom of the mash you move the probe, including the exit port). Regulating the HLT temp with the probe in the HLT itself or the water stirring loop leaves you to monitor and anticipate that system offset.

All of this is fun to think about academically at my keyboard, but when it comes to actually operating systems like this, it makes me extremely confident that my eBIAB setup is way more pro than con.

 

[sbro]

Question about the cfc tee with temp probe.
With it vertical like the image shows, do you get an air bubble in the top interfering with accurate temp readings, or is that not an issue?
I turn my tee about 70 degrees CCW to give more liquid contact and a flatter exit for the hose (less of a bend) to the fermenter.

 

[Bobby_M]

Question about the cfc tee with temp probe.
With it vertical like the image shows, do you get an air bubble in the top interfering with accurate temp readings, or is that not an issue?
I turn my tee about 70 degrees CCW to give more liquid contact and a flatter exit for the hose (less of a bend) to the fermenter.

The probe reaches down just past the horizontal liquid entry so despite the likelihood of an air bubble, it's still in the flow path. I'd say it's probably even better to flip it upside down and route the probe cable under the shelf. It would also make connecting the last hose that much easier.

 

[cfrazier77]

That is a great set up. I know biab is faster, but I enjoy the more hands on tinkering of a herms or rims. Great job.

 

[Bobby_M]

I thought I'd bookend the thread with the delivery photo. The sink for the Steam Slayer supply and drain still need to be installed and the controller needs mounting on the wall. The system can brew 6 or 12 gallon batches, but the owner doesn't actually drink much so I suggested 6 gallon batches or splitting 12s into two different fermenters for experimentation and beer variety. There's room on the table on on the glycol chiller load for one more 14G or two more 7G fermenters. This room is on the main floor of the house, just down the hall from the great room.

 

[sibelman]

Sweet. This brewer will need some additional storage for bits and pieces that matches the existing aesthetic.

 

[shoengine]

I thought I'd bookend the thread with the delivery photo. The sink for the Steam Slayer supply and drain still need to be installed and the controller needs mounting on the wall. The system can brew 6 or 12 gallon batches, but the owner doesn't actually drink much so I suggested 6 gallon batches or splitting 12s into two different fermenters for experimentation and beer variety. There's room on the table on on the glycol chiller load for one more 14G or two more 7G fermenters. This room is on the main floor of the house, just down the hall from the great room.

View attachment 859361

Love the room and can't wait to see what is cooked up for storage. I am extremely disappointed not to see a sanitary sill. I wonder whose omission that was.

 

[stamandster]

That's a sweet setup for not brewing too much. Wow.

 

[cfrazier77]

Just wow, what a joy it will be to brew in that room. Well done Bobby!

 

[Bobby_M]

Love the room and can't wait to see what is cooked up for storage. I am extremely disappointed not to see a sanitary sill. I wonder whose omission that was.

I have no idea. I was not involved in the spec out for the room/materials itself.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's a sweet setup for not brewing too much. Wow.

How about someone that has never brewed?

 

[mashdar]

Go big or go.... oh wait, this IS home.

edit: I need a bigger house.

 

[Deadalus]

What is a sanitary sill?

You've got me looking at tables now @Bobby_M! I have two of those same unitanks and it's a great idea to get them up higher to access the side ports. I am leaning towards an open base (no shelf) and then I can put my glycol chiller underneath. I'll probably take a little off the legs too. Stainless tables like that are about 34" and so it's at probably about 6 ft or a little more to the top of the fermenter. Maybe a 10' ceiling in there? Cleaning them is what I am wondering about most. Probably easiest to just drop them off the table to clean.

 

[Bobby_M]

What is a sanitary sill?

You've got me looking at tables now @Bobby_M! I have two of those same unitanks and it's a great idea to get them up higher to access the side ports. I am leaning towards an open base (no shelf) and then I can put my glycol chiller underneath. I'll probably take a little off the legs too. Stainless tables like that are about 34" and so it's at probably about 6 ft or a little more to the top of the fermenter. Maybe a 10' ceiling in there? Cleaning them is what I am wondering about most. Probably easiest to just drop them off the table to clean.

I think that table is too tall but I didn't want to cut the legs down. I left it up to the customer since he still has contractors working in the house and can easily have it done if he wants. 6" could have been taken off easily and still leave room for the chiller on the bottom shelf. I think with the wheels, the idea was to be able to scoot the whole table closer to the hot side for a CIP.

 

[Deadalus]

I tried CIP using the offset top 1.5 TC ports and the coils still in place but that didn't work well. I was using my Spike pump. Maybe with the coil out and the sprayer centered or possibly a stronger pump. I'm still figuring out what is easiest/fastest but I think a soak and then just manually cleaning might be simplest. They aren't heavy empty. I have an Icemaster 100 so an open base no shelf would be needed for me and just measuring it, it is about 28.5" tall with the wheels. I'm tall so I may still do it, it would free up the chiller footprint and keep me from having to get down on the garage floor to do dumps. My back and hips certainly would appreciate it, thanks for the idea!

 

[Bobby_M]

I tried CIP using the offset top 1.5 TC ports and the coils still in place but that didn't work well. I was using my Spike pump. Maybe with the coil out and the sprayer centered or possibly a stronger pump. I'm still figuring out what is easiest/fastest but I think a soak and then just manually cleaning might be simplest. They aren't heavy empty. I have an Icemaster 100 so an open base no shelf would be needed for me and just measuring it, it is about 28.5" tall with the wheels. I'm tall so I may still do it, it would free up the chiller footprint and keep me from having to get down on the garage floor to do dumps. My back and hips certainly would appreciate it, thanks for the idea!

I don't think the Spike pump or the Riptide are aggressive enough to clean center mounted coils but it's good for the jacketed types. A friend of mine can clean the Spike with the coils using a 1/2HP brewery pump. It's so aggressive the fermenters shake.

 

[Gozie Boy]

Like the linear center drain. Drains are often underestimated in designs.

 

[Broken Crow]

How about someone that has never brewed?

OK...Trying to wrap my head around this... Is this one of those people I refer to as 'having more money than sense'?
I really hope you introduced them to this site so that when they decide in a few months that brewing is too much like work, they come on here to sell it on at a substantial loss to one of our more dedicated members.
That's a truly beautiful piece of work.

 

[shoengine]

OK...Trying to wrap my head around this... Is this one of those people I refer to as 'having more money than sense'?
I really hope you introduced them to this site so that when they decide in a few months that brewing is too much like work, they come on here to sell it on at a substantial loss to one of our more dedicated members.
That's a truly beautiful piece of work.

No, you have that all wrong. When you are walking a guest through the tour, you stop by the immaculately clean brew room, point out the brewery, answer a few questions, all while enjoying a commercial beer. Then move onto the solarium for a sit while pointing out the 6.5 baths (that are also unused).

 

[shoengine]

What is a sanitary sill?

Could be the wrong term, but it is a raised threshold that prevents water from leaving a wet area. Just need some relief from the hall so that when hosing out the room the water is contained. It is possible it is sloped signficantly and I can't see it.

 

[Broken Crow]

No, you have that all wrong. When you are walking a guest through the tour, you stop by the immaculately clean brew room, point out the brewery, answer a few questions, all while enjoying a commercial beer. Then move onto the solarium for a sit while pointing out the 6.5 baths (that are also unused).

OK, Gotcha! ..it's another damn flipper doing their part to destroy the prospect of home ownership by jacking up real-eastate prices and will probably sell to an airbnb operator idiot that doesn't understand it takes more than a weekend to make a batch of beer for the party that rents the place.
Did I get that right this time?
Maybe Bobby can hang on to the address for a few months and post in the wierd real-estate listings when it comes up or if it's in a state where a group of brewer's live, they can rent it periodically via airbnb and actually put this beautiful gear to work!

 

[mashdar]

Could be the wrong term, but it is a raised threshold that prevents water from leaving a wet area. Just need some relief from the hall so that when hosing out the room the water is contained. It is possible it is sloped signficantly and I can't see it.

My eye went to that as well. The diagonal cut in the tile indicates they've at least attempted to use a slope. Personally, I'd want a door so I could go nuts.

 

[Bobby_M]

OK...Trying to wrap my head around this... Is this one of those people I refer to as 'having more money than sense'?
I really hope you introduced them to this site so that when they decide in a few months that brewing is too much like work, they come on here to sell it on at a substantial loss to one of our more dedicated members.
That's a truly beautiful piece of work.

From what I understand, which may not be the full picture, the owner of this new construction house just got it in his head that he wanted a brewery in the house. He's a PHD in food science and ran a related company for 30 years so he's somewhat adjacent to brewing. I just never understood wanting a brewery if craft beer wasn't already his favorite beverage. Maybe he likes entertaining a lot of beer people.

I tried VERY hard to sell him on a sophisticated single vessel system but it didn't meet the aesthetic goal and he didn't want to make it more simple. I think my role in system builds is to understand the priority list and advise to the best of my ability right up until "shut up and take my money". And.... here we are.

 

[Bobby_M]

My eye went to that as well. The diagonal cut in the tile indicates they've at least attempted to use a slope. Personally, I'd want a door so I could go nuts.

The doors on both ends of the room are pocket doors. I suspect the lack of threshold was due to either not knowing it would be helpful or the fact that there were some ADA build considerations.

 

[Broken Crow]

From what I understand, which may not be the full picture, the owner of this new construction house just got it in his head that he wanted a brewery in the house. He's a PHD in food science and ran a related company for 30 years so he's somewhat adjacent to brewing. I just never understood wanting a brewery if craft beer wasn't already his favorite beverage. Maybe he likes entertaining a lot of beer people.

I tried VERY hard to sell him on a sophisticated single vessel system but it didn't meet the aesthetic goal and he didn't want to make it more simple. I think my role in system builds is to understand the priority list and advise to the best of my ability right up until "shut up and take my money". And.... here we are.

I cannot and will not argue with that, nor make fun of it... My own entry to homebrewing was finally spurred by one of my closest friends who learned it herself from her engineering prof step-dad and he was one of those guys with several outbuildings full of a ton of fun pastimes and cool/brilliant projects from collectable utility vehicles to homespun energy systems. I just hope he makes good use of it!