Help with water profile

[DC-Brewer]

Thanks in advance for your help. I've been making reasonable dark beers (stouts, some Belgians, etc) but have never been happy with my pale ales, IPAs, and pale lagers. I recently ordered a water report and want to make sure I understand it. Values are below in ppm:

pH 8.3
Total solids 221
Electrical conductivity 0.37
Na 90
K <1
Ca 1
Mg <1
Total hardness, CaCO3 = 3
Nitrate <0.1
Sulfate, SO4 = 3
Cl 5
Carbonate CO3 2.3
Bicarbonate HCO3 213
Total alkalinity CaCO3 178
Phosphorus 2.9
Fe <0.1

Does this mean that I have relatively alkaline water that is also very soft? If so, to "improve" this profile for light beers can I acidify with lactic or similar acid for "soft" water profiles such as pils and acidify with salts like gypsum or Epsom salts for hoppier ales from "hard" water regions. I am ordering a pH meter as well for fine tuning during the mash as well. Any advice on my profile would be amazing. FYI, its from Mississippi now despite my handle.

 

[xpops]

Have you worked with Brun'water spreadsheet yet? i had a similar issue where my darks were always great but not so much with my lighter ales. you may need to consider phosphoric acid (88%). i was using that in almost all of my light beers, before i moved to the country and had well water - which i found inconsistent and went to using RO water - which may be an option for you as well?

 

[BigEd]

Thanks in advance for your help. I've been making reasonable dark beers (stouts, some Belgians, etc) but have never been happy with my pale ales, IPAs, and pale lagers. I recently ordered a water report and want to make sure I understand it. Values are below in ppm:

pH 8.3
Total solids 221
Electrical conductivity 0.37
Na 90
K <1
Ca 1
Mg <1
Total hardness, CaCO3 = 3
Nitrate <0.1
Sulfate, SO4 = 3
Cl 5
Carbonate CO3 2.3
Bicarbonate HCO3 213
Total alkalinity CaCO3 178
Phosphorus 2.9
Fe <0.1

Does this mean that I have relatively alkaline water that is also very soft? If so, to "improve" this profile for light beers can I acidify with lactic or similar acid for "soft" water profiles such as pils and acidify with salts like gypsum or Epsom salts for hoppier ales from "hard" water regions. I am ordering a pH meter as well for fine tuning during the mash as well. Any advice on my profile would be amazing. FYI, its from Mississippi now despite my handle.

At 221ppm dissolved solids your water is close to the legal definition of mineral water. The alkalinity is very high and the Calcium is very low, so technically it's soft water. However, with all that alkalinity you can expect problems with light colored beers. As suggested in the earlier reply, look into brewing water software. Also read all the good info and links about brewing water in the HBT Brew Science section.

You will need to get that alkalinity down to brew light beers and there are various ways to accomplish that. Sodium is already about as high as you would ever want to go. The good thing is ions such as chloride and sulfate are very low along with the Calcium. That means once the alkalinity problem is tackled you should be able to add appropriate Calcium salts to get the water modifications for various beer styles.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

On first guess it will take (grist bill dependent) in the ballpark of 2.5 ml lactic acid 88% to knock out the excessive alkalinity in 5 gallons of this water. Plus in addition to that you will need to add calcium chloride and calcium sulfate, perhaps starting with 2 grams of each into 5 gallons. Or just add 4 grams of calcium chloride and no calcium sulfate if you are not concerned with balancing chloride and sulfate ions.

 

[DC-Brewer]

Thank you all for your help! Water chemistry is getting a little easier for me since I downloaded Bru n water and read a little more. Still a few followup questions:

1. When I acidify my water, the carbonate essentially disappears into CO2, correct and so dilution is not necessary for that, only acid?

2. As a followup, the only ion I can't rid myself of in this profile is the sodium. Is that level of sodium enough to cause a perceptible problem in beers. I don't currently perceive a salty or bitter mineral taste in my beer just a dullness in my light beers that I'm eager to improve.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Best advice would be to build water from RO and minerals and get away from both the alkalinity and sodium issues.

 

[Gibberoni]

Best advice would be to build water from RO and minerals and get away from both the alkalinity and sodium issues.

This is what I do since the water in Atlanta is so terrible for brewing. I use distilled water then use the bru'n water sheet to build a water profile based on the beer I am brewing.

I use distilled over RO for 2 reasons: 1) RO is not always available at the Kroger near me, and when it is its usually 1.09/gal over .89 for distilled; 2) Distilled water is essentially just H2O, so you can enter 0 for pretty much everything in bru'n water.

 

[DC-Brewer]

Hard to argue with distilled water but it seems like a pain in the *** for 10 gallon batches where I use 20 gallons of water in the mash and hlt. May be my only choice I guess

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Home Depot has RO units for as little as $180. If you are using 20 gallons per batch, it will pay for itself in no time.

 

[Gibberoni]

Hard to argue with distilled water but it seems like a pain in the *** for 10 gallon batches where I use 20 gallons of water in the mash and hlt. May be my only choice I guess

I know the pain. The only time I drive to Kroger is for brewing water. Its literally 20 feet from my apartment. lol.

 

[mabrungard]

That water is almost certainly been run through a water softener. It's not ideal for brewing since the sodium content is sort of high. Is there a problem with iron in the unsoftened water? If not, have the unsoftened water tested to see what's in it.

 

[DC-Brewer]

No water softener on premises here unfortunately. I would bypass that in a heartbeat rather than head to Kroger. I've been reading your posts for awhile FYI. Used to live in the north side of Indy! Slightly different water here!

 

[mabrungard]

You should check with your water supplier. Some do soften the entire water supply via ion-exchange prior to delivering it into the distribution piping. My city does and it makes the water unusable for brewing with sometimes 250 ppm sodium.

However, I have heard that there are salty sodium bicarbonate aquifers in Mississippi. Maybe you are on one?

 

[DC-Brewer]

I think unfortunately I am my friend. Will check with the water supplier. And either invest in an ro system or a wheelbarrow to carry water to my brew house! Fyi- how bad is the sodium if I can get rid of the bicarbonate with acid? Haven't read a ton on sodium other than to try and keep it below 80

 

[mabrungard]

For darker styles, I think that you'll find that the sodium level won't be objectionable. It might be a little unwelcome in your pale styles once you neutralize the bicarbonate. You might need to resort to phosphoric acid since the bicarb is sort of high.

 

[DC-Brewer]

So after one trip to Kroger for 20 gallon of brewing water, I am looking at an RO system and a pH meter. I've heard that using Bru'n water I can pretty much hit my pH spot on but that a pH meter can help fine tune the situation.

I was thinking of picking up a cheap RO unit from a big box store vs bulk reef supply or buckeye hydro since they've gotten great reviews. The former two include a TDS meter, the cheap big box ones do not. Few questions:

1. Do I need a TDS meter or can I assume reasonable ion removal

2. For a pH meter, I'm in between the Omega phh-7011, the Milwaukee 102, and the Hanna pHep 5. The Omega has a version with a TDS monitor that may sway me in that direction. I've read all of the reviews on this website and it seems there is a mixed opinion that any of these will work although the Hanna may have calibration issues.

3. Can I store the RO water I make in carboys? The sets I've seen only make 75 GPD to 150 GPD. Either way its going to take forever to get 20 gallons on a brew day. I'd like to have a tank attached that I can go empty at night into a carboy and let it fill up passively. I understand some carbonic acid may dissolve into the water but that should be minimal, right? I'm going to keep a cap on the carboys of course.

4. Are the BRS or buckeye systems worth going to for a little more money than the big box stores?

 

[DC-Brewer]

FYI Martin, I've been told I'm on one of those sodium bicarbonate aquifers you mentioned. My beer is now salty in my mind although I never "noticed" it before. Could be in my head or due to the crawfish I've been eating while drinking it!

 

[mabrungard]

Since you may not be able to tell when a RO membrane has failed and what you assume is low ionic content RO, is actually closer to your tap water. Therefore, it's imperative to employ an instrument that can decipher that the water quality has changed. A TDS meter is a crude instrument, but it does provide a good "relative" reference for your RO water. Be sure to monitor the RO water when the machine is likely to be working properly and then if the TDS rises at some point in the future, you'll have an opportunity to know that.

You can store RO water. CO2 won't necessarily dissolve to a great degree in the stored water. In some cases, there may actually be excess CO2 in your fresh RO water that will off-gas and that can be a good thing. But the bottom line is that dissolved CO2 is relatively meaningless in brewing water calculations.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

I was thinking of picking up a cheap RO unit from a big box store vs buckeye hydro since they've gotten great reviews. The former two include a TDS meter, the cheap big box ones do not. Few questions:

1. Do I need a TDS meter or can I assume reasonable ion removal(/quote]

In our opinion, there are two mandatory "tools" you'll want so you'll know what's going on with your RO, and so you can do some basic troubleshooting: A pressure gauge, and a TDS meter. An RO system right out of the box will run fine without either of these items, but just like a car w/o a gas gauge, sooner or later you'll which you had both.

2. For a pH meter, I'm in between the Omega phh-7011, the Milwaukee 102, and the Hanna pHep 5.

Our sale on the Milwaukee 102 for HBT'ers is ongoing. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=593374

Are the buckeye hydro systems worth going to for a little more money than the big box stores?

If you compare apples to apples, the HBT Sponsor's systems and replacement media and filters are actually priced lower than the big box stores! And of course you get Buckeye's legendary support before, during, and after the sale - as compared to "Joe" at the Big Box who works in the electrical, garden, and oh ya, the water filter sections...

Russ