Help With Oktoberfest Lager Yeast Starter

[Thumbs71]

I'm getting ready to get my supplies ordered up for my Oktoberfest, but I need some clarification on making my yeast starter. I'm looking at the Midwest Supplies Oktoberfest Extract kit. Mr Malty says that with a 1.064 OG, 2 week old yeast (87% viability), and using a stir plate that I need a 1.42 gallon starter. So, does this mean that I literally need to make 1.42 gallons of wort for the starter?

 

[rocketman768]

I'm getting ready to get my supplies ordered up for my Oktoberfest, but I need some clarification on making my yeast starter. I'm looking at the Midwest Supplies Oktoberfest Extract kit. Mr Malty says that with a 1.064 OG, 2 week old yeast (87% viability), and using a stir plate that I need a 1.42 gallon starter. So, does this mean that I literally need to make 1.42 gallons of wort for the starter?

Yep.

 

[osagedr]

I'm getting ready to get my supplies ordered up for my Oktoberfest, but I need some clarification on making my yeast starter. I'm looking at the Midwest Supplies Oktoberfest Extract kit. Mr Malty says that with a 1.064 OG, 2 week old yeast (87% viability), and using a stir plate that I need a 1.42 gallon starter. So, does this mean that I literally need to make 1.42 gallons of wort for the starter?

Yes, if you are going to do it as a lager. Cool temperature = way more yeast.

This is why I mostly (but not always) use dry yeast and repitch slurry. Two packages rehydrated...easy-peasy.

 

[jeffcosgrove]

Do you mean liters instead of gallons? I entered your parameters with 3 yeast packs and it gave me 1.42 liters. You can adjust the slider on the bottom to reduce the size of the starter and increase the yeast packs and vice versa.

 

[Thumbs71]

Do you mean liters instead of gallons? I entered your parameters with 3 yeast packs and it gave me 1.42 liters. You can adjust the slider on the bottom to reduce the size of the starter and increase the yeast packs and vice versa.

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think I was in a hurry and left some info out. I'm going to make a lager, use Wyeast ACT2633 Liquid Oktoberfest Lager Yeast, and a stir plate.
Here's what I did...

 

[rocketman768]

A 1.5 gal starter is perfectly reasonable for 5 gallons of lager. I like doing smaller batches for lagers for this reason.

 

[SwampassJ]

You can try a 2 or even a 3 step starter.

Make the first starter at ~1 liter will net you about 2 packs of yeast (~200billion cells). Chill it and decant the liquid off of the yeast. Now pour 2.5-3L on top of that yeast cake.

 

[Thumbs71]

You can try a 2 or even a 3 step starter.

Make the first starter at ~1 liter will net you about 2 packs of yeast (~200billion cells). Chill it and decant the liquid off of the yeast. Now pour 2.5-3L on top of that yeast cake.

That was actually my next question. I don't completely understand how to step up.
Say I need a 5.37 liter starter to get 443 billion cells. If I want to step up, can I just make a 2 liter starter, chill, decant, then add an additional 2.37 liters of wort to step up? Is it that simple?

 

[SwampassJ]

That was actually my next question. I don't completely understand how to step up.
Say I need a 5.37 liter starter to get 443 billion cells. If I want to step up, can I just make a 2 liter starter, chill, decant, then add an additional 2.37 liters of wort to step up? Is it that simple?

It is a little more complicated. I don't have the link on my phone but there is a program that calculates step starters. A 1liter starter should net about a 2x increase in cell count from a single package on a stir plate. Then treat that as 2 packet pitch on Mr. Malt to get a new starter size.

 

[Thumbs71]

It is a little more complicated. I don't have the link on my phone but there is a program that calculates step starters. A 1liter starter should net about a 2x increase in cell count from a single package on a stir plate. Then treat that as 2 packet pitch on Mr. Malt to get a new starter size.

I gotcha!

The WYeast was the closest step calculator I could find...
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

 

[osagedr]

I gotcha!

The WYeast was the closest step calculator I could find...
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrate.cfm

This one will do exactly what you need:

www.yeastcalc.com

 

[Thumbs71]

This one will do exactly what you need:

www.yeastcalc.com

Awesome! This is perfect!
What does the Final Fermentation section at the bottom mean? Is that how about much yeast will be in the yeast cake after primary fermentation?

 

[osagedr]

Yes, that's what it means. You pitch 458 billion cells and create 876 billion more while fermenting, summing the two yields 1.334 trillion. It would be fun to name them all.

 

[Thumbs71]

Yes, that's what it means. You pitch 458 billion cells and create 876 billion more while fermenting, summing the two yields 1.334 trillion. It would be fun to name them all.

Perfect! Thank you for all info.
One more question... maybe...
With a lager yeast starter, does the starter need to ferment at the lower recommended temps, 48-58F, or at higher temps?

 

[osagedr]

Perfect! Thank you for all info.
One more question... maybe...
With a lager yeast starter, does the starter need to ferment at the lower recommended temps, 48-58F, or at higher temps?

That's a pretty good question. Most believe that room temperature is best for yeast propogation, which is what a starter is trying to accomplish. Some will say that you want the yeast to "get used to" working at the temperature of the main batch, but I haven't personally found evidence of benefits from this. After reading and thinking about it I would have no qualms about propogating at room temperature (or higher).

 

[SwampassJ]

Perfect! Thank you for all info.
One more question... maybe...
With a lager yeast starter, does the starter need to ferment at the lower recommended temps, 48-58F, or at higher temps?

If you're pitching the liquid portion of the starter then yes, but that's a moot point once you rate the **** out of iton a stir plate. Room temp will build more yeast faster.

 

[ghpeel]

Aaaaaand this is why I just toss 2 packets of Saflager 34/70 into my lager wort and call it a day Fermentation kicks off within 12-18 hours and I'm good to go.

 

[osagedr]

Aaaaaand this is why I just toss 2 packets of Saflager 34/70 into my lager wort and call it a day Fermentation kicks off within 12-18 hours and I'm good to go.

Hopefully you rehydrate. If not, give it a shot, it's easy. I like this general strategy as well, then re-pitching the slurry after the first batch.

 

[SwampassJ]

Aaaaaand this is why I just toss 2 packets of Saflager 34/70 into my lager wort and call it a day Fermentation kicks off within 12-18 hours and I'm good to go.

Sure if you want every beer to have th same yeast character stick with the 34/70 for life. It's like using the same hops for every batch.

 

[osagedr]

Sure if you want every beer to have th same yeast character stick with the 34/70 for life. It's like using the same hops for every batch.

I agree that some variety in yeast is nice. Having said that, I've won medals for anything from Helles to Schwarzbier to Doppelbock using 34/70. It's pretty darned versatile.

For those that prefer the convenience of dry yeast, you have 34/70, S-23 or S-189, and the latter is only available in a few places.

 

[SwampassJ]

Have you tried the 189? I've seen it mentioned a few times but I have never having seen it.

 

[osagedr]

Have you tried the 189? I've seen it mentioned a few times but I have never having seen it.

Just tonight I sampled my first three beers made with S-189: one an AG Dortmunder and the other two Brewhouse kits I made for a friend using slurry repitched from the Dortmunder. All are very nice, clean beers. I'm looking forward to trying it on a really malty style like maybe a bock.

 

[ghpeel]

S-189 is very, very clean. It's like the US-05 of lager yeasts. Made my first two lagers with it good stuff.

 

[Thumbs71]

Ok, now I'm thinking about just using dry yeast for my first lager. Pitching 2 packets might just be easier than making a starter for now. Maybe the W-34/70. Any thoughts?

 

[osagedr]

Ok, now I'm thinking about just using dry yeast for my first lager. Pitching 2 packets might just be easier than making a starter for now. Maybe the W-34/70. Any thoughts?

I think this is a wise plan. W-34/70 has been a very good and versatile strain for me. It's a workhorse down into the mid 40's.

Fermentis recommends pitching rates of 80-120 g/hl (so 16 to 24 grams for 5 gallons) for pitching at 54 degrees, and 200-300 g/hl (40-60 grams for 5 gallons) for pitching cooler than that. I've pitched very cool with two 11.5 grams rehydrated and had good results, but I wouldn't try it again.

So if you want to pitch in the mid-50's (make sure your slurry [the rehydrated dry yeast] temperature is close to the same temperature) then cool your wort to fermentation temperatures, then two packages rehydrated should suffice; otherwise go to three or four packages if you want to pitch cool. Practically there may be no advantage to this and it may cost you two more packages of yeast; on the other hand many brewers swear by cool pitching, partly because it is less likely to result in diacetyl.

I'm a big believer in rehydrating your dry yeast as per the manufacturer's instructions, especially for lagers. It's easy and gives you the best start to fermentation. So boil a cup of water, cool it to around 75 degrees F (23C), sprinkle your two packages of dry yeast into it, stir it frequently (I use a glass measuring cup on my stir plate with a small bar) for half an hour to 45 minutes, cool it to close to the temperature of your wort, and pitch.

http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_W-3470_HB.pdf

 

[Thumbs71]

Thanks for all of the advice. You're a wealthy of information!

Edit: @osagedr But damn your Jets!

 

[osagedr]

Haha...nice win over the Sabres last night. I have a lot of respect for Buffalo as an organization. Both the Jets and Sabres have been playing well of late and both have a lot of work ahead if they are to make the playoffs. The Jets head out on the road for a bit now having finished an 8-game homestand and are likely to fade a bit.

 

[Iceman6409]

Ok I too am looking to make my first Octoberfest and lager it as well. I do have a freezer with temperature controller. But I am thoroughly confused by all this starter stuff. I only make all grains and will make an all grain Octoberfest. But for a starter, at least for my first batch, I want to keep it as simple as possible. If I have to buy multiple dry yeast packets then so be it. So could someone please walk me through this entire process of lagering using dry yeast? A lager/temperature schedule would be nice too. I am ok up until this point and then you take it from here. I have finished the boil and I am cooling to.................. Ok now go from there and please tell me cool to what temperature, how many yeast packs, then the lagering/temperature schedule. Thank you in advance.

 

[osagedr]

How much yeast you should pitch will to some extent be determined by your OG. Post your recipe, OG, etc. and we can help you get started. If you are within the style guidelines, you will need something like 400 billion cells (unless you plan to ferment really cold), which two 11.5 gram packages of Fermentis dry lager yeast will deliver. I've had good luck with W-34/70 but I bet S-189 will make a good Oktoberfest as well (it's harder to find though).

In a nutshell, brew your Oktoberfest, chill it to around 45 (50 is okay), pitch two packages of W-34-70 rehydrated as per the manufacturer's instructions, aerate the hell out of your wort, hold your fermentation temperature at 50 degrees, and let the fun begin.

 

[craigevo]

I'm confused about the cell counts. The link above to the fermentis yeast site says "Viable cells at packaging:> 6 x 10^9 / gramme" and a quick check on danstar's website suggests nottingham yeast has >=5 billion per gram. So one pack of dry yeast is 11.5g so you only get 60 to 70 billion cells in a pack.

MrMalty seems to come up with 200 billion cells per 11.5 dry yeast pack. Am I misinterpreting the term "Viable cells at packaging" ? I realise the spec states ">" (greater than) 6Bln but does that really mean it could be three times that amount ? or did I just fail maths?

I also see that the fermentis pdf says "up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9C" which, as osagedr said earlier, is a pitching rate of 40-60g per 5 gals. So you need 4 or five packs for this oktoberfest lager if fermenting at 48 deg F ! expensive.