Help with No Sparge Brewing

[p-nut]

I have made about 15 batches with my new system now and I am having some problems. My system is a no sparge RIMS setup. Here is the thread showing my setup https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/nsrims-no-sparge-rims-finished-finally-164668/.

I typically fill the mash tun with 7.5 to 7.8 gallons of water (I have been using around 10 lbs of grain in every batch). I heat my strike water and dough in. I let the mash rest for a few minutes and begin to recirculate. When I am finished I mashout and transfer the wort to the boil kettle. I am consistently getting 75% +/- 2% efficiency and I am always hitting my preboil volume (7 gallons). I had a water analysis done by Ward Labs and I am adjusting the water using TH's spreadsheet. I just set the mash volume to 7.5 gallons and put zero in for the sparge.

The problem I am having is with an unknown tart flavor. I think it is like green apple, but I am not so sure. I am pitching the correct amount of yeast. I have tried over pitching and under pitching to see how this may effect the beer. I have aged them for 10 days and up to three weeks. I have gotten rid of all my buckets and I am now fermenting in glass carboys. I have soaked the carboys in PBW then sanitized with Star San. I even switched to Iodophor for a couple of batches.

NONE of these changes has had any effect on my beers. They all have the same tart flavor that makes every beer taste the same, regardless of ingredients. I have been making APAs every time. I started out using American 2-Row and now I am using Marris Otter.

I would like to keep the same no sparge process because of the ease of use. This setup is so simple and easy. I really want to make it work. I know that my water to grain ratio is really out of wack, but the BIAB guys seem to be doing OK. I am up for suggestions and I don't mind continuing the experiments. By the way, all of the beers have cleared nicely and do seem to have a clean flavor except for the tartness.

 

[IrregularPulse]

What kind of time frame are we talking from brew day till drinking? Is that the 3 weeks?

 

[Reelale]

I have made about 15 batches with my new system now and I am having some problems. My system is a no sparge RIMS setup. Here is the thread showing my setup https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/nsrims-no-sparge-rims-finished-finally-164668/.

I typically fill the mash tun with 7.5 to 7.8 gallons of water (I have been using around 10 lbs of grain in every batch). I heat my strike water and dough in. I let the mash rest for a few minutes and begin to recirculate. When I am finished I mashout and transfer the wort to the boil kettle. I am consistently getting 75% +/- 2% efficiency and I am always hitting my preboil volume (7 gallons). I had a water analysis done by Ward Labs and I am adjusting the water using TH's spreadsheet. I just set the mash volume to 7.5 gallons and put zero in for the sparge.

The problem I am having is with an unknown tart flavor. I think it is like green apple, but I am not so sure. I am pitching the correct amount of yeast. I have tried over pitching and under pitching to see how this may effect the beer. I have aged them for 10 days and up to three weeks. I have gotten rid of all my buckets and I am now fermenting in glass carboys. I have soaked the carboys in PBW then sanitized with Star San. I even switched to Iodophor for a couple of batches.

NONE of these changes has had any effect on my beers. They all have the same tart flavor that makes every beer taste the same, regardless of ingredients. I have been making APAs every time. I started out using American 2-Row and now I am using Marris Otter.

I would like to keep the same no sparge process because of the ease of use. This setup is so simple and easy. I really want to make it work. I know that my water to grain ratio is really out of wack, but the BIAB guys seem to be doing OK. I am up for suggestions and I don't mind continuing the experiments. By the way, all of the beers have cleared nicely and do seem to have a clean flavor except for the tartness.

I'm gonna take a stab at this. I've done probably 20 or so batches no-sparge and my efficiency has never exceeded 67%. You are getting some really high numbers. Could it be the crush? In other words, if your grain crush is too fine, that might explain the higher numbers and perhaps an astringency problem in the final product. I don't know, just a guess. BTW, love your set-up. I'm doing something very similar, but with PID.

 

[p-nut]

What kind of time frame are we talking from brew day till drinking? Is that the 3 weeks?

That's 3 weeks in the fermenter and 1 week in the keg carbonating.

 

[maida7]

How long does your beer stay in the primary fermenter? Do you use a secondary? How do you control the temps?

Are you sure it's green apple? Green apple is from fermentation. Sourness can be from infection. Astringency can be tannins. all 3 can be described as "tart"

 

[p-nut]

I'm gonna take a stab at this. I've done probably 20 or so batches no-sparge and my efficiency has never exceeded 67%. You are getting some really high numbers. Could it be the crush? In other words, if your grain crush is too fine, that might explain the higher numbers and perhaps an astringency problem in the final product. I don't know, just a guess. BTW, love your set-up. I'm doing something very similar, but with PID.

I think my Brewhouse Efficiency (If I am calculating it correctly) is a little higher because of my mashtun design. It is a bottom draining mashtun, so i get every last drop out. I remember listening to a podcast and the guest (whoever it was) said that mashtun design could have the greatest effect on your total efficiency. I guess it could be the crush. I am having it crushed at the LHBS, so I have no control over that right now. Maybe I'll get the next batch from the other store in town. I am using a pid also, I just happens to be one I stole from the office. I can run as many PID loops as I want. The only limitation is the number of outputs on the controller. Thanks

 

[p-nut]

How long does your beer stay in the primary fermenter? Do you use a secondary? How do you control the temps?

Are you sure it's green apple? Green apple is from fermentation. Sourness can be from infection. Astringency can be tannins. all 3 can be described as "tart"

Beer stays in primary the whole time. I have a fermenting fridge to control temps. The sensor is held against the side of the fermenter. I have even tried ramping the temp up after 4 days to 70. I have been fermenting at 68 degrees. As far a flavors are concerned, I had the same train of thought as you. That is why I have varied my fermentations and ditched the buckets. I am not sure if I know what Astringency is like. What would cause this.

 

[Reelale]

I think my Brewhouse Efficiency (If I am calculating it correctly) is a little higher because of my mashtun design. It is a bottom draining mashtun, so i get every last drop out. I remember listening to a podcast and the guest (whoever it was) said that mashtun design could have the greatest effect on your total efficiency. I guess it could be the crush. I am having it crushed at the LHBS, so I have no control over that right now. Maybe I'll get the next batch from the other store in town. I am using a pid also, I just happens to be one I stole from the office. I can run as many PID loops as I want. The only limitation is the number of outputs on the controller. Thanks

That makes sense, I have about 555ml deadspace in my cooler. You can check both your brewhouse efficiency and efficiency into boiler with Beersmith. I see nothing awry in your process, although you don't mention fermentation temperature. I'm sure you've got that under control.

 

[p-nut]

That makes sense, I have about 555ml deadspace in my cooler. You can check both your brewhouse efficiency and efficiency into boiler with Beersmith. I see nothing awry in your process, although you don't mention fermentation temperature. I'm sure you've got that under control.

I have been changing the efficiency number in promash to determine my efficiency. I assume this is Brewhouse Efficiency. Am I correct?

 

[p-nut]

Reelale,
Can you give me a description of your process?

 

[Reelale]

I have been changing the efficiency number in promash to determine my efficiency. I assume this is Brewhouse Efficiency. Am I correct?

Sorry, not familiar with that program. And I don't have access to Beersmith here or I could tell you the difference between the two.

 

[spriolo]

Are you using the same yeast on all the batches? green apple might be how your yeast is cleaning up / finishing.

 

[p-nut]

Are you using the same yeast on all the batches? green apple might be how your yeast is cleaning up / finishing.

Yes I am. I am using US-05. The one batch that seemed ok was the only one that I repitched from a previous batch. I had none of the tart flavor. I did have a sort of apricot finish that was a little weird. I just made a kolsch for a friend, so I hope it turns out ok.

Here is the fermentation setup. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/fermenting-controls-finished-117353/

 

[Reelale]

Reelale,
Can you give me a description of your process?

Sure. It's basically what Saccharomyces describes here. I heat strike water in BK, pump up all but 3 or 4 gallons to mlt for dough-in, once I stabilize mash temps I recirculate. Recirculate for 60 minutes, drain into BK and boil. My problem has been overshooting mash temps (if they drop) with direct firing the BK. Thus, the need for a RIMS. After boil, I pump through plate chiller and whirlpool back into BK. Then drain into fermenter. Ferment at 66F for a minimum of 3 weeks and rack to keg. Set and forget in the refrigerator for another 2.

 

[maida7]

I am not sure if I know what Astringency is like. What would cause this.

Astringency is a dry puckering woody tartness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent

It can be extracted from husks of the the grain when conditions are right. High PH, low gravity and high temps lead to tannin extraction. Many conventional brewers assume that BIAB would lead to tannin extraction. Since your process is somewhat similar...

What is the temp at mash out? What is the gravity of the mash? What is the PH of the mash?

 

[Reelale]

Astringency is a dry puckering woody tartness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent

It can be extracted from husks of the the grain when conditions are right. High PH, low gravity and high temps lead to tannin extraction. Many conventional brewers assume that BIAB would lead to tannin extraction. Since your process is somewhat similar...

What is the temp at mash out? What is the gravity of the mash? What is the PH of the mash?

Actually, BIAB and no-sparge have none of the tannin extraction problems associated with pH, since you don't add sparge water.

 

[p-nut]

Astringency is a dry puckering woody tartness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astringent

It can be extracted from husks of the the grain when conditions are right. High PH, low gravity and high temps lead to tannin extraction. Many conventional brewers assume that BIAB would lead to tannin extraction. Since your process is somewhat similar...

What is the temp at mash out? What is the gravity of the mash? What is the PH of the mash?

Mash out is at 165. I can only guess at the gravity. I think it is around 1.044. The pH always been around 5.0 to 5.1. I have check pH at mash temps and room temp and it doesn't seem to matter much. I am using colorPhast strips. I used a digital meter last weekend and got the same thing. It may need a new probe or calibration though.

 

[p-nut]

Actually, BIAB and no-sparge have none of the tannin extraction problems associated with low pH, since you don't add sparge water.

What part of NC are you living in.

 

[Reelale]

What part of NC are you living in.

I do have soft water, but was just assuming that proper pH from the start was a given.

 

[jkarp]

Where do you take that mashout temp? Is there any chance the grainbed is actually higher? Still, pretty darn tough to get tannins in no-sparge. I wasn't paying attention one time and my grainbed hit 185 during the mashout recirc and there was no tannins I could detect.

One thing you could try is a simple batch with no recirc or mashout. Just a single rest, no sparge to eliminate any temp-related tannin issues. After that, it's gotta be fermentation...

 

[Reelale]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I do not mash-out...don't see the need.

 

[p-nut]

Where do you take that mashout temp? Is there any chance the grainbed is actually higher? Still, pretty darn tough to get tannins in no-sparge. I wasn't paying attention one time and my grainbed hit 185 during the mashout recirc and there was no tannins I could detect.

One thing you could try is a simple batch with no recirc or mashout. Just a single rest, no sparge to eliminate any temp-related tannin issues. After that, it's gotta be fermentation...

Oh, the man who inspired my build! I was ready to build a 3 tier until I saw your setup. Nice job!

My probe is on the outlet of the RIMS so I know I am not overshooting. I have calibrated my sensors too.

I forgot to mash out the last one, so we'll see if that helps.

 

[p-nut]

Here is my last water profile.

SO4: 1
HCO3: 22

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.5 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 2 / 0
CaSO4: 3 / 0
CaCl2: 2 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 73 / 73
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 16 / 16
Cl: 36 / 36
SO4: 60 / 60
CaCO3: 53 / 53

RA (mash only): 0 (5 to 10 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.60 (Bitter)

 

[maida7]

Mash out is at 165. I can only guess at the gravity. I think it is around 1.044. The pH always been around 5.0 to 5.1. I have check pH at mash temps and room temp and it doesn't seem to matter much. I am using colorPhast strips. I used a digital meter last weekend and got the same thing. It may need a new probe or calibration though.

In that case, I doubt you have a problem with tannins.

From what I have read about your fermentation, I doubt that is the problem.

That leaves infection, Bummer! Have you disassembled and cleaned the popits on your kegs?

Has anybody else tried these beers? What do they think? Give your beer to some judges without telling them what to look for.

 

[p-nut]

In that case, I doubt you have a problem with tannins.

From what I have read about your fermentation, I doubt that is the problem.

That leaves infection, Bummer! Have you disassembled and cleaned the popits on your kegs?

Has anybody else tried these beers? What do they think? Give your beer to some judges without telling them what to look for.

Maybe I should bring one to you. I live in Asheville also.

 

[maida7]

Maybe I should bring one to you. I live in Asheville also.

Sure dude, It would be my pleasure.

Or better yet, Are you a MALT member? Bring it to the next club meeting August 19th 7:00PM at the black forest restaurant in Arden. You don't need to be a member to come to a meeting.

 

[p-nut]

Sure dude, It would be my pleasure.

Or better yet, Are you a MALT member? Bring it to the next club meeting August 19th 7:00PM at the black forest restaurant in Arden. You don't need to be a member to come to a meeting.

Should I just bring a Growler?

 

[p-nut]

maida7
Are you on city water? If so have you been treating your water at all?

 

[bob1852]

What's the longest you've let the beer age in the keg? (you mentioned one week earlier)

Have you tried letting batches sit in the keg for 3-4 weeks?

It could just be "young" beer taste.

 

[p-nut]

What's the longest you've let the beer age in the keg? (you mentioned one week earlier)

Have you tried letting batches sit in the keg for 3-4 weeks?

It could just be "young" beer taste.

Yes I have. I have untapped some of the kegs let them sit and then checked them a few weeks later.

 

[bob1852]

what kind of hops are you using?

 

[p-nut]

Most have been cascade. One was amarillo.

 

[maida7]

Should I just bring a Growler?

Yeah that's perfect. At the meetings, we all sit around and sample each other beer.

There is also a contest. The August theme is lawnmower beers. We score the beers 1-10 and the highest score gets a prize. The prizes are usually pretty good.

 

[maida7]

maida7
Are you on city water? If so have you been treating your water at all?

I live in Fletcher but I'm on Asheville city water. I've had mine tested by ward labs. I think the city water is very good for brewing but it needs calcium and magnesium. I use tap water and add salts to adjust for all my brews. I do a more conventional mash and batch sparge in a cooler. I don't have a reoccurring tart flavor in my beer.

 

[p-nut]

Can anyone else out there take a look at this and see if anything might have been overlooked?