Help with my first saison?

[TravelingLight]

Did a few extract batches that I created, all turned out well. Just finished kegging my first all grain, success. All those have been IPAs and IIPAs. Now I'm ready to try for a fruited saison and was hoping for some ideas, tips, and advice.

Here's the grain bill I was thinking about, giving me a OG of 1.057, FG of 1.010:

10# Pils
1# Vienna
1# Wheat
0.5# Sugar (corn, dextrose, table, etc)

Here's where I need some help. I modeled this grain bill after a "classic saison" recipe I think I read in CB&B magazine. Their hop schedule was Fuggle @30 and Styrian Goldings @10.

I plan on fruiting this saison in secondary. I don't want brett because I don't want to wait that long. I'm looking at 3711. I'm thinking of fruiting with raspberries because they're relatively easy to get and have just been wanting a raspberry saison. My questions...

1) Would 3711 be a good yeast to use for this beer? If not, any other suggestions? FWIW, I usually put saisons in one of two categories: spicier/bitterer, or fruitier/brighter. I want this one to be fruitier and brighter.
2) With that grain bill and the addition of fruit on the back end, what hop schedule would pair well with that? I've also looked at El Dorado, Nelson (big fan of Nelson in my IPAs), Citra, etc.
3) Any suggestions on changing the grain bill?

Thanks everyone.

 

[m00ps]

first

 

[rupert130]

I would suggest enough bittering for 15-20 IBU and no late additions. Let the fruit shine!

 

[m00ps]

sorry, i'll try to be helpful

1) out of what is widely available, 3711 is a great choice for saisons with fruit added or hoppy ones. It has a crisp, tart lemon flavor that works well with most fruits and not too much funk compared to other saison yeasts

2) Any of those hops would work, but just be sure to keep them in check. Raspberries can have a bit of a bite at the end once the sugars are fermented out in the final beer, add too much hops and it may not be as easy sippable as youd hope. I'd only do 1oz at 10-15min then add a flameout/whirlpool addition

3) the grain bill looks great, you mashing low? either way, expect it to finish under 1.010

 

[martyjhuebs]

What is your mash temperature? This will be important when using 3711. That yeast will dry out your beer quick. I would mash on the higher side and ferment at 85+ to get some true flavor out of the yeast.

 

[Limbrizik]

3711 will ferment that way lower than 1.010, its also known as the "Beast Yeast." It will eat every last bit of wort. My experience with it is it having a mellow Belgian character. I tend to use Wyeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit, it has a more intense and unique belgian character.

Your grain bill looks good but if you add that half lb of sugar there's no way that beer will end at 1.010 but IMO you want a saison as close to 1.000 as you can get it.

 

[TravelingLight]

sorry, i'll try to be helpful

1) out of what is widely available, 3711 is a great choice for saisons with fruit added or hoppy ones. It has a crisp, tart lemon flavor that works well with most fruits and not too much funk compared to other saison yeasts

2) Any of those hops would work, but just be sure to keep them in check. Raspberries can have a bit of a bite at the end once the sugars are fermented out in the final beer, add too much hops and it may not be as easy sippable as youd hope. I'd only do 1oz at 10-15min then add a flameout/whirlpool addition

3) the grain bill looks great, you mashing low? either way, expect it to finish under 1.010

Thanks, m00ps. I was hoping you would jump in since you're a saison master. So you're saying no hops until 10-15, not even a bittering at 60, right? Also, I was planning on mashing at 150 but I'm thinking maybe I should go for closer to 148ish?

What is your mash temperature? This will be important when using 3711. That yeast will dry out your beer quick. I would mash on the higher side and ferment at 85+ to get some true flavor out of the yeast.

I was planning on mashing at 150 and possibly lower but you're advocating for higher?

3711 will ferment that way lower than 1.010, its also known as the "Beast Yeast." It will eat every last bit of wort. My experience with it is it having a mellow Belgian character. I tend to use Wyeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit, it has a more intense and unique belgian character.

Your grain bill looks good but if you add that half lb of sugar there's no way that beer will end at 1.010 but IMO you want a saison as close to 1.000 as you can get it.

Thanks. Yeah, I want this beer to finish well below .010. You're saying with the sugar it should absolutely finish below 10, right? That's what I was thinking as well.

 

[Limbrizik]

3711 will bring a wet sock down below 1.010

 

[secondbase]

3711 is really easy to use but the flavor profile is pretty clean/boring for a saison. It does work well with hoppy saisons and brett but it wouldn't be my first choice. If you're looking for fruity try 3726, 585, or 566. I've used 3726 and 585 with fruity hops and the yeast character complimented them very well. Haven't used 566, but I've heard rumors that it's the fruity part of the Dupont culture.

Other than that, I would drop the sugar out of the grain bill and mash low (148). The yeast will dry the beer out. The sugar will just thin out the body.

 

[martyjhuebs]

I know that a traditional Saison is meant to be light and highly carbonated but I feel that the 3711 will take it lower than you will expect. I mashed a White IPA at 152, SG of 1.060 and I got a FG of 1.006. The beer came out very thin. If you plan for a tart fruit Saison it'll be good light and thin but if you want a little body with a sweet fruit, I would adjust accordingly.

 

[m00ps]

If you want to shoot for a hoppy saison, you can definitely still add a standard bittering addition. I'd just do like 0.25-0.5 oz of a typical bittering hop to ensure the last thing you taste with each sip isnt hop bitterness.

FWIW, I usually mash my saisons at 148F. WY3711 hasnt made a thin bodied beer for me so far, even with the last several getting to 1.000 and below. Most saison yeasts seem to have this weird quirk, but I know WY3711 is well known for a contradictingly silky mouthfeel

 

[TravelingLight]

I know that a traditional Saison is meant to be light and highly carbonated but I feel that the 3711 will take it lower than you will expect. I mashed a White IPA at 152, SG of 1.060 and I got a FG of 1.006. The beer came out very thin. If you plan for a tart fruit Saison it'll be good light and thin but if you want a little body with a sweet fruit, I would adjust accordingly.

Thanks for the heads up.

Also, been on a big oud bruin kick lately, I would GLADLY trade for some of your blackberry oud bruin!

 

[TravelingLight]

If you want to shoot for a hoppy saison, you can definitely still add a standard bittering addition. I'd just do like 0.25-0.5 oz of a typical bittering hop to ensure the last thing you taste with each sip isnt hop bitterness.

FWIW, I usually mash my saisons at 148F. WY3711 hasnt made a thin bodied beer for me so far, even with the last several getting to 1.000 and below. Most saison yeasts seem to have this weird quirk, but I know WY3711 is well known for a contradictingly silky mouthfeel

Thanks again brother. With this advice and someone else in the thread, I think I'll mash at 148 instead of 150.

 

[elburrogrande]

I just racked my saison Bernice clone on top of pineapples and loquats. Similar grain bill as yours but without added sugar and I used flaked oats and acid malt. OG was 1.056 and went down to 1.004 after 3 weeks. I mashed at 146. I did add bottle dregs from a saison Bernice though.