Help with low efficiency and BROWN stout

[kako187]

Hello guys I am looking for some help troubleshooting my low efficiency. I am new to all grain brewing and have done 5 batches so far. I use a rectangular cooler as a mash tun. I believe it is 52 quart with a SS braid. My first two batches were perfect and I hit my numbers dead on. The first was a left hand milk stout and the second was a blonde.

After this I started having problems. I am coming up 10- 20 points short on my OG. I have not changed anything in my system and cannot figure it out. I use two different thermometers both calibrated at 32 degrees in Ice water and read 211-212 in boiling. I mash at 151 - 154 for 60 to 75 min. I typically lose about 3 degrees during my mash. I dough in slow and stir like hell for 5 mins ish. I stir once at 30min then after 60-75min i vorlouf and drain.

I batch sparge. heat my water to about 180 and by the time it goes in and i stir like crazy for 5 min it settles about 165 degrees. I then wait 5 min vorlouf and drain.

I mash at 1.25 - 1.5 quarts per pound. I always collect 7 gal in the kettle and boil down to 5 in the fermenter.
I think it is important to note that on my 3rd brew (first one having problems) it was the same milk stout recipe. this came out at 1.051 instead of 1.062 and was BROWN instead of black! I mean LIGHT brown! Could have called it an ambre and gotten away with it! (this is with a pound of roasted barley and 3/4 pound choc malt!)

my next was a RIS that came out 1.082 instead of 1.102 and again brown instead of black (dark brown this time though)

I get my grain at the LHBS and they normally crush at .035. For my last batch i set the mill to .030 with no help in efficiency

Than yesterday was a blonde I upped the grain to 13.25 pounds to compensate and it came out 1.052 instead of 1.075!

My morale is dipping and I feel like I cannot make stouts anymore! I use tap water and I know it is hard water but I dont understand why my first two batched were perfect and now it's just going downhill. I have read and read posts but am clueless. I refuse to start adding DME after all I have invested in all grain set up.

Please help!

 

[billl]

Depending on where you get your water from, it can change pretty dramatically from season to season. I'd try a batch with bottled water just to eliminate that as a variable.

Then, you need to start measuring every step - eg gravity readings in the tun, first runnings, sparge running, dead spave etc to determine where you are losing points.

 

[kako187]

How do I take gravity readings in the tun?

Here is a screenshot of my annual water report if it helps at all.

 

[billl]

You take gravity readings in the tun during the mash just like you would any other time. Pull as sample and test as usual. If you are using a hydrometer, you'll have to cool the sample in the freeze (prefreeze a metal bowl to make it much faster)

Braukaiser has a great writeup on testing efficiency at various steps.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Efficiency

If you scroll down to the first table, there is an estimate of what the SG should be based on mash thickness. eg if you are mashing at 1.25 qts/lb, your gravity should measure 1.096 if you've gotten 100% conversion. If you aren't close to that, then you aren't converting all the sugar and you've got a mash issue - eg water, ph, crush, temp etc. If you are getting near that, then you are getting all the sugar converted, but you aren't getting it out of the tun very well.

As for water, I was recommending you try bottled water for a batch just to eliminate that variable. Depending on where you get your water, an annual water report might not mean much. Anything coming from surface water sources or wells impacted by surface water could change pretty dramatically with the seasons. eg spring snow runnoff or a rainy season might be quite different than winter.

 

[kako187]

Thanks for the suggestions Bill. When you say bottled water, do you mean "spring water" or "artisan water" or "distilled water"

 

[billl]

If distilled or RO is cheap, I'd go with that. That way you know you are starting with a clean slate and can just add enough salts for flavor.

If there is a huge price difference, you should be able to get a water profile for any spring water brands and confirm they are suitable.

 

[kako187]

I have a RO system in my house, would using that be defeating the purpose?

 

[billl]

The only reason I suggested buying water was to rule out any potential water issues. If you can do that for (virtually) free at home, fantastic. Water chemistry is actually one of the more complicated things to troubleshoot, so making it a non-issue lets you look at other things that might be wrong.

(There are lots of threads around here about how to adjust RO water for various style profiles.)

 

[kako187]

Would low efficiency cause my color problem? What about low conversion? I don't understand why my Stout was brown

 

[MindenMan]

Is it possible the grains weren't milled the same as your previous batches? it appears you are doing everything correctly. I agree with bill, getting a hydro sample at every step is really important. You can calculate what every step should O.G., by using one of the free brewing software packages available. Maybe not exactly, but very close to it.

 

[Yooper]

I have a RO system in my house, would using that be defeating the purpose?

RO water is perfect! It looks like you have a lot of sodium in your water report, so if you have RO water handy, that's ideal.

Check out the "water primer" as a sticky in the brewing science forum on how to begin with RO water.

I'm unsure what's going on here. It sounds like poor conversion, but it's hard to say for sure. When you make a new batch, start with RO water, and take readings like suggested in the mash tun. Without readings, it's impossible to know if it's conversion problems, or lautering problems.

 

[billl]

"Would low efficiency cause my color problem? What about low conversion? I don't understand why my Stout was brown"

They could very well be related. eg a bad crush would really lower your efficiency for the extraction of sugar as well as color. Or, you could have something like your PH being off which would impact the enzymes for conversion but have little impact on color. If you were having lautering problems, that would basically mean you aren't getting the wort out well so you would be mixing some wort with extra water and everything gets thinned out.

Stepping though the process and taking readings at each step is the fastest way to zero in on the problem. Also, make sure you are taking notes on volumes eg added 4 gallons, got 2.5 gallons of first runnings. You also might want to weigh your grains on bathroom scale just to independently verify that.

 

[kako187]

Unless the LHBS's Mill rollers are messed up, the grind on all of them was set at .035 except the last one which was ground with a setting of .030

 

[kako187]

RO water is perfect! It looks like you have a lot of sodium in your water report, so if you have RO water handy, that's ideal.

Check out the "water primer" as a sticky in the brewing science forum on how to begin with RO water.

I'm unsure what's going on here. It sounds like poor conversion, but it's hard to say for sure. When you make a new batch, start with RO water, and take readings like suggested in the mash tun. Without readings, it's impossible to know if it's conversion problems, or lautering problems.

Yooper I checked out the sticky (thanks!) I am going to retry this stout this weekend with double crushed grain. Is all i need to do is add Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate per 5 gallons of RO? Sounds too easy

 

[billl]

"Unless the LHBS's Mill rollers are messed up, the grind on all of them was set at .035 except the last one which was ground with a setting of .030"

If you post a pic of the next order, we can confirm that it looks good.

 

[kako187]

"
Stepping though the process and taking readings at each step is the fastest way to zero in on the problem. Also, make sure you are taking notes on volumes eg added 4 gallons, got 2.5 gallons of first runnings. You also might want to weigh your grains on bathroom scale just to independently verify that.

I did notice that on my last batch I mashed with 5 gal of water for 13.25 lb grain and drained 3 gallons first runnings into my bucket. I then sparged with 4 gallons. after i collected that 4 gallons i put it in my brew kettle then put my bucket back under and left the valve open. When i went to clean my tun i had an additional 1/2 gallon in the bucket. I know you are supposed to get out what you put in as far as sparge water goes, so could this have been from my first runnings? would this 1/2 gallon cause an 18 point drop on my OG? When you drain your first runnings, how LONG do you normally let it drain for? once it basically stops collecting I start my sparge. Do you guys normally let it drain for a length of time after this?

 

[billl]

If you were are at full conversion and 1.5 qt per lb, the gravity of the first running should have been around 1.080. Leaving a half gallon behind would be 80*0.5 / 5 = 8 points.

You might want to pick up some rice hulls this time around to make sure you are draining well. A very fine crush can often cause it to drain very slowly or not at all.

As for time, I usually let it slowly trickle out for a couple minutes after it looks like its mostly stopped. It looks like it going really slow, but there is usually an extra quart or so that comes out that way.

 

[kako187]

If you were are at full conversion and 1.5 qt per lb, the gravity of the first running should have been around 1.080. Leaving a half gallon behind would be 80*0.5 / 5 = 8 points.

But then this .5 gallons was mixed with the sparge water so it was dilluted but did not just disappear from the equation all together.

I will definitely take grav readings throughout my whole process this weekend along with using RO water.