help with kegerator foamy beer

[213chrisp]

I have a home built small beverage cooler i converted to a kegerator using a tower setup. my issue that i have is it seems no matter what i have tried im getting a tone of foam from any pour, it does seem to get better after first pour but not by much.

what i have done so everyone can understand what ive tried.

fridge is sitting at 38.7 deg according to a cup of water and thermoter at the bottom of my fridge, the top is 39.0 so i know temp is not the cause, i have been trying to slowly change the temp to get it right at 40, but dont want to do large temp swings fast, so just minimal adjustments with the fridge thermostate.

i modified the neck to have a tube thats feeding my liquid line and also mounted a fan to it forcing cold air up the neck to help with temp control in the tower to prevent heat issues.

im currently running a mt carmal summer wheat beer and im sitting at 8psi of output on my regulartor(which i think is low for wheat beers to begin with but i could be wrong there as well)
the line feeding the keg is about 4ft. (co2)
the liquid line is about 5ft ( i think) but it does go below the tank level some due to my setup for forcing the air into the neck.

i did just go back to my local brew shop and purchase 8ft of hose to try to increase line pressure, and im going to modifiy my hose so it does not go below the keg line.

is there anything else that im missing??? because the hose length is my last option i can come up with to help get a good pour with cold beer.

 

[RansomBrewing]

This might be a dumb suggestion and you might have already done it, but have you tried to take all of the pressure off the keg and start over? Like, if the beer is carbed up properly and you added too much CO2 (either because the pressure gauge on the regulator is screwed up or by accident).

If you haven't done this, I would either pull the ring on the relief valve or take a screw driver and push down on the gas post to see if you could release some pressure.

 

[peterj]

It's the line length. 5 ft is way too short. 8 ft might be ok at 8 psi, but you're probably going to have undercarbed beer if you let it sit at that pressure at 40F. Personally I think 10 ft lines are the minimum for any setup.

 

[213chrisp]

actually no i completely forgot to try that, so just pull the plug and get all the air out and then just redo the pressure back to 8psi?

 

[kev211]

Have you tried swapping/cleaning the liquid post and poppet? Ive never had it happen, but I know people will sometimes get foamy beer if there is some debris partially clogging it up

 

[213chrisp]

thanks peter, all the places i was doing research online was telling me 8ft lenght, i assumed being i have such a short line its causing not enough pressure forcing it to flow to fast causing issues with regularity out of the tap.
my question is why 10ft because i've not read anything about that length at all.

 

[213chrisp]

Have you tried swapping/cleaning the liquid post and poppet? Ive never had it happen, but I know people will sometimes get foamy beer if there is some debris partially clogging it up

yes, i had the system fully stripped and cleaned and sanitized before reassemble when i put that keg in the machine. this is the 5th keg i had but i replaced both the co2 line and liquid lines this time and i think thats where im having my issues because the lengths are different then before. even the factory line wasnt very long, maybe 6ft.

 

[kev211]

yes, i had the system fully stripped and cleaned and sanitized before reassemble when i put that keg in the machine. this is the 5th keg i had but i replaced both the co2 line and liquid lines this time and i think thats where im having my issues because the lengths are different then before. even the factory line wasnt very long, maybe 6ft.

Then in that case, I would try the longer line haha. I run 8 foot lines but have my kegerator set to ~35 degrees. But the longer lines should help make the foam go away.

 

[213chrisp]

Then in that case, I would try the longer line haha. I run 8 foot lines but have my kegerator set to ~35 degrees. But the longer lines should help make the foam go away.

well id love to get my setup down to 35 deg but i figured i would raise it to 40 since i was having such a bad issue with foam till i got that figured out, and then lower it back down to the colder temps and lower the psi a few at that point.

 

[Carusoat]

There isn't a set line length. It depends on a lot of things, line diameter, line type, c02 pressure, temp, height to tap, etc. Try this link it should help.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/

Also, if you're using that bevflex ultra stuff i think the resistance is something like 0.6

 

[Kwitty]

Peterj is on the money! I run 10feet on all my taps and wind them into a nice coil like an extension cord. I then use zip ties (not too tight) to hold in place. I then let them dangle beside the keg because cold air sinks and I want the beer line cold. Never had a problem with being below the keg. And any small bubbles you see are co2 and get flushed out each draft. They shouldn't be enough to cause massive amounts of foam. Just a bubble or 3! You'll hardly notice. However if the entire line is co2 that's another issue!

 

[Thanks_Yeasties]

Whats the inside diameter of the hose you're using? Ideally you should be using 3/16". I just corrected this problem on my system and waaahlah!

And as far as using a longer hose length it is much easier to start with a couple extra feet and trim it down if the hose is causing to much resistance to the pour.

 

[213chrisp]

There isn't a set line length. It depends on a lot of things, line diameter, line type, c02 pressure, temp, height to tap, etc. Try this link it should help.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/

Also, if you're using that bevflex ultra stuff i think the resistance is something like 0.6

ill dig threw that link, and yes, bevlex 203 3/16 id

 

[Carusoat]

After a little more research it seems people think the resistance is anywhere from 0.7 - 2.2. I'd recommend going with something in the 0.7 - 1.1 range for your calculations. I have 10ft at 38 degrees in my kegerator right now and I wish I had longer lines. There's also multiple threads about using bev flex and line length.

 

[brewprint]

Longer lines as stated above.

I have mine around 36 degrees with a 2 degree differential and all 4 taps have 10ft lines. I also am set at 12psi.

Increase your psi unless you like undercarbed beer and double your line length. Problem solved.

 

[213chrisp]

There isn't a set line length. It depends on a lot of things, line diameter, line type, c02 pressure, temp, height to tap, etc. Try this link it should help.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/

Also, if you're using that bevflex ultra stuff i think the resistance is something like 0.6

L = (keg_pressure – 1 – (Height/2)) / Resistance
if i follow this. im currently at (8-1-(2/2))/.6) = 6/.06 = 10.
so according to that i would need 10ft of line?
if thats the case and i wanted to get more pressure into the keg itself, but what throws me a curveball is temp and keg pressure.
being its a wheat beer i assumed it needed more pressure to carb the beer properly. and according to a desired c02 of 3.0 i would have to run my tank pressure to 17.7 psi which seems high?

so if i ran it at 17 psi. i would be @ 25ft of hose which doesnt add up properly, thats why i get confused as what i need to setup properly being a wheat beer?

does this make since to you guys cause it doesnt to me?

 

[m00ps]

I unscrewed and adjusted the base settings for my kegs thermostat using an online tutorial. Now instead of setting it at "coldest" and having it at 40F, I can set it midway and get it to 34 or lower. I've even froze my lines a few times...

 

[peterj]

The colder you keep the fridge, the lower you can set the CO2 pressure. So if you want it to have 3 volumes, you can set the fridge at 34F and set the CO2 to around 14 psi. If you set it at 17 psi, then yeah you'll probably need somewhere around a 25 ft line (I would assume). That's why the people on here who do soda need something like 30 feet of line, because it's at a much higher pressure for more carbonation.

Personally I just set all of my beers to the same pressure (around 2.4 volumes) and call it a day. It's not worth it to me to have an extra long line and/or a separate regulator because I think pretty much all beer tastes good around that pressure. And I actually have a stout on tap that I don't leave hooked up to the CO2, and I'll just hook a line up after about every other pint to refill the CO2. That keeps it at a little lower carbonation level than the other kegs (sometimes a lot lower when I forget to refill the pressure for too long).

But if you make a lot of wheat beers and you really like them to be carbed to 3 volumes, then it might be worth it to have a dedicated long line.

Or you could try reducing the pressure when you want to pour a beer, but that would be a hassle to have to turn down the pressure, purge the keg, pour a beer, then reset the pressure every time.

 

[213chrisp]

another question about pressure
according to the link the pressures are as followed.
3/16″ ID vinyl tubing = 3 psi/ft
1/4″ ID vinyl tubing = 0.85 psi/ft
3/16″ ID Polyethylene tubing = 2.2 psi/ft
1/4″ ID Polyethylene tubing = 0.5 psi/ft
3/8″ OD Stainless tubing = 0.2 psi/ft
5/16″ OD Stainless tubing = 0.5 psi/ft
1/4″ OD Stainless tubing = 2 psi/ft

but does the bevlex 3/16 registere as 2.2psi/ft?
i know you said .6 but my questions would be why such a large variation of pressures ?

 

[RansomBrewing]

actually no i completely forgot to try that, so just pull the plug and get all the air out and then just redo the pressure back to 8psi?

I'm no expert like a lot of guys on here, but you may want to try just releasing the pressure rather than redoing your lines/pressures/temperatures. It is way easier and my keg lines are nowhere near 10 ft. Maybe 6 ft.

 

[RansomBrewing]

actually no i completely forgot to try that, so just pull the plug and get all the air out and then just redo the pressure back to 8psi?

I'm no expert like a lot of guys on here, but you may want to try just releasing the pressure rather than redoing your lines/pressures/temperatures. It is way easier and my keg lines are nowhere near 10 ft. Maybe 6 ft.

 

[Carusoat]

Like I said there is debate on the resistance of Bevlex ultra. I will say this though: I think I have pretty much the same numbers as you. I keep my kegerator a little warmer though (38) and keep my kegs around 10psi usually. I have 10ft of bevflex ultra on right now with a similar height as you and it's a little foamy. I actually am planning on getting some new lines soon. So my suggestion to you would be to assume the low resistance (therefore giving you a higher line length) and pick a number close to it and try that. I personally keep my beers mostly around 2.5 volumes and I think I'm gonna try 15ft.

My calculation would be: L = (10-1-(2/2))/0.6= 13.3 ft.

So I'll try 15, it'll prob be a little slow, and cut it down accordingly.

If I assumed 2.2 psi/ft instead of 0.6 it would come out to 3.6ft. Since it's foamy at 10ft, 2.2 doesn't make any sense. And your lines wouldn't foam either.

 

[notyal]

Where are you measuring height from? Top of keg?

 

[Carusoat]

Height should be measured from the middle of the keg to the faucet.

 

[213chrisp]

Like I said there is debate on the resistance of Bevlex ultra. I will say this though: I think I have pretty much the same numbers as you. I keep my kegerator a little warmer though (38) and keep my kegs around 10psi usually. I have 10ft of bevflex ultra on right now with a similar height as you and it's a little foamy. I actually am planning on getting some new lines soon. So my suggestion to you would be to assume the low resistance (therefore giving you a higher line length) and pick a number close to it and try that. I personally keep my beers mostly around 2.5 volumes and I think I'm gonna try 15ft.

My calculation would be: L = (10-1-(2/2))/0.6= 13.3 ft.

So I'll try 15, it'll prob be a little slow, and cut it down accordingly.

If I assumed 2.2 psi/ft instead of 0.6 it would come out to 3.6ft. Since it's foamy at 10ft, 2.2 doesn't make any sense. And your lines wouldn't foam either.

well i think im going to end up doing the same thing.
lastnight i went ahead and installed my 8ft hose i bought, trying to get it back down to 37-38deg. i did turn the psi back up to 10. and go from there. tomorrow im probably going back to the local shop and pick up 15ft of line just like you said, hook it up and slowly take out 6 " if needed till i get what i want. the 13ft was the magical number i was calculating as well.

thanks for the help.
i did try to get a pour lastnight but got a tone of foam but i think its cause i let everything warm up when swapping the lines and then forgot to turn the gas back on so i was like.... umm why is the tap not working now..... dough.....:smack::smack::smack:

 

[213chrisp]

also forgot to add, i did go ahead and pull the co2 out till there was none in the tank to make sure the tank wasnt overpressued as well. its currently sitting at 9.5-10psi.

 

[PapaO]

Forget the line length. There are two things you need to know volumes of co2 and beer temp. Than use this chart to set your co2 psi. http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php. So at 8 psi at 39f you’re set up at 2.15 volumes. You should be closer to 2.5 to 3 volumes. So the co2 is coming out of solution. To get the volumes of co2 of Mt Carmal summer wheat you could E- Mail them and ask.
http://www.mtcarmelbrewingcompany.com/contact
To get your temp you need the temp of the beer. So pour a pint and use that temp. A cup of water does not have enough mass to get the right temp.
Now for line length calculator you don’t need one. All line length calculators are for long draw systems. They are used to calculate flow rate “pints per minute” on remote draw systems. Bars need to pour as fast as they can. For a kegerator at home you can take your time you don’t have 20 people line. Most go with 10 to 12 feet so they can serve a stout at 2 volumes or wheat at 3 without needing a line for each beer. The only thing you lose is a second or two to pour a beer. If you are going to use bevlex 203 3/16 id start with 15 feet. If the pour is to slow cut some off until you get the pour you want.

 

[213chrisp]

Forget the line length. There are two things you need to know volumes of co2 and beer temp. Than use this chart to set your co2 psi. http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php. So at 8 psi at 39f you’re set up at 2.15 volumes. You should be closer to 2.5 to 3 volumes. So the co2 is coming out of solution. To get the volumes of co2 of Mt Carmal summer wheat you could E- Mail them and ask.
http://www.mtcarmelbrewingcompany.com/contact
To get your temp you need the temp of the beer. So pour a pint and use that temp. A cup of water does not have enough mass to get the right temp.
Now for line length calculator you don’t need one. All line length calculators are for long draw systems. They are used to calculate flow rate “pints per minute” on remote draw systems. Bars need to pour as fast as they can. For a kegerator at home you can take your time you don’t have 20 people line. Most go with 10 to 12 feet so they can serve a stout at 2 volumes or wheat at 3 without needing a line for each beer. The only thing you lose is a second or two to pour a beer. If you are going to use bevlex 203 3/16 id start with 15 feet. If the pour is to slow cut some off until you get the pour you want.

which your correct on your statement of not enough pressure with the temp, thats why i said i was trying to lower the beer slowly down to 36deg with 10psi which should be right at 2.5 , i didnt think about calling them to find out what they suggested was the optimal volume of co2, and i will try to contact them about that.