Help with first biab

[fun4stuff]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/revvys-belgian-blonde-leffe-clone-202852/

I'm want to do the above recipe in a bag!

Revvy's Blonde
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 4/25/2010
Style: Belgian Blond Ale Brewer: Michael
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Volume: 6.41 gal
Boil time: 90 minutes

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
9 lbs 13.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.61 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.32 %
5.3 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.75 %
3.5 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 1.83 %

1.36 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 23.4 IBU
0.71 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (30 min) Hops 7.0 IBU

10.6 oz Sugar, Table (Last 15 minutes of boil) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5.49 %

1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale

Mash In: Add 14.20 qt of water at 178.4 F
Hold mash at 158.0 F for 45 min

So I heat 14.2 qts water up to around 186, add the 2 row, Munich, biscuit, and melanoiden for ...45 mins... Then cool to 158 and hold for 45 minutes?

Then continue with a 60 min boil following the hops schedule as you would for an extract brew?

 

[Culinarytracker]

So I heat 14.2 qts water up to around 186, add the 2 row, Munich, biscuit, and melanoiden for ...45 mins... Then cool to 158 and hold for 45 minutes?

The way I read it, 186° is the "strike water" temp. When the grains (at room temp) are added to the water, if everything goes as planned they should cool the water down to 158° immediately. Then hold for 45 minutes.

Edit: Wait a minute, I typed a little quickly there. Where is the 186 number coming from? Looks like you just need to add grains to water that is at an estimated 178.4°, check that it equalized at 158, then allow to mash.

Then continue with a 60 min boil following the hops schedule as you would for an extract brew?

Yes.

 

[paperairplane]

NO!!! You are off track here...

First off,the 14 quarts listed is 3.5 gallons for a traditional mash, which will then be sparged. The 178* temp is so that when the grain is added it should stabilize at 158 - then hold that temp for 45 minutes.

For a BIAB, you typically do a no sparge mash - so the total volume of water is used for the mash. This is a little over 10#'s, so figure close to a gallon lost to grain absorption, about a gallon lost to boil off - little lost to trub. So for a finished 5.5 gallons, start with 8 gallons water total.

Since the volume of water is greater, the grain will cool it less- so you don't need as much heat - mash in around 170. Then mash for the 45 minutes. End of the mash, pull the bag, squeeze like it owes you money and start your boil.

Now if you mean you want to do a bag inside a cooler and sparge or something like that, you would follow the original more closely.

 

[Culinarytracker]

^^This. Good point.


I like to do my mash in the smaller volume of water, then have the remaining water ready to go at around 170°, then "dunk sparge" to make sure I get the grains nice and rinsed. Then squeeze as above. All of it then goes together and boil as normal.

 

[Gavin C]

In the recipe ignore the author's calculations for volume and temperature of the strike water. That is unique to their equipment and serves no useful function in a recipe IMHO. The only mash information that is pertinent in a recipe are the temperature of the rest(s) and the time at each rest.

Each brewer will have their own equipment subject to both inbuilt factors and external factors which will impact on strike water temperature.

For no-sparge full volume BIAB you will have a much thinner mash than a traditional three vessel approach. This large water volume will not cool as much as a smaller volume at dough in.

Also you will be mashing in the pot which will also be at the strike temperature. This is a big metal heat sink and will also result in less of a temperature drop at dough in. This is just one example of how the calculations differ for BIAB.

Work out how much water you need (Brewersfriend, pricelessbrewing's calculator or Beersmith are all useful). I use the latter.

This will also tell you an estimate for strike temperature (The temperature the water needs to be before you dough in), in order to hit the mash temp closely. (On my system for a 158 mash temp my strike water would be about 163F) Again this would be different for another brewer's setup. I mention it only to provide perspective

In the recipe it calls for a 45 minute mash. This is probably adequate but I usually go 60-90 mins for various reasons. In the three vessel system it will be followed up with considerable time batch or fly sparging during which time more enzymatic activity is likely to proceed. Others will advise very differently here so don't get hung up on this point.

I mash longer to try to get better attenuation and am in no rush on brewday. I do other non-brew-related things during the mash. My pot loses minimal heat.

The only other changes I make to allow for BIAB are a double crush of the grains and usually lowering the grain bill slightly to account for the efficiency of BIAB

Best of luck with the brew.

 

[fun4stuff]

NO!!! You are off track here...

First off,the 14 quarts listed is 3.5 gallons for a traditional mash, which will then be sparged. The 178* temp is so that when the grain is added it should stabilize at 158 - then hold that temp for 45 minutes.

For a BIAB, you typically do a no sparge mash - so the total volume of water is used for the mash. This is a little over 10#'s, so figure close to a gallon lost to grain absorption, about a gallon lost to boil off - little lost to trub. So for a finished 5.5 gallons, start with 8 gallons water total.

Since the volume of water is greater, the grain will cool it less- so you don't need as much heat - mash in around 170. Then mash for the 45 minutes. End of the mash, pull the bag, squeeze like it owes you money and start your boil.

Now if you mean you want to do a bag inside a cooler and sparge or something like that, you would follow the original more closely.

Thanks for the help guys. Still new to this.

So why does this say its a 90 minute boil if goldings is 60 mins and saaz is 30 mins? Seems like it should be a 60 min boil?

 

[1977Brewer]

(pics of a rad kitchen

.

I wanna come brew at your place. Just sayin'.

 

[fun4stuff]

In the recipe ignore the author's calculations for volume and temperature of the strike water. That is unique to their equipment and serves no useful function in a recipe IMHO. The only mash information that is pertinent in a recipe are the temperature of the rest(s) and the time at each rest.

Each brewer will have their own equipment subject to both inbuilt factors and external factors which will impact on strike water temperature.

For no-sparge full volume BIAB you will have a much thinner mash than a traditional three vessel approach. This large water volume will not cool as much as a smaller volume at dough in.

Also you will be mashing in the pot which will also be at the strike temperature. This is a big metal heat sink and will also result in less of a temperature drop at dough in. This is just one example of how the calculations differ for BIAB.

Work out how much water you need (Brewersfriend, pricelessbrewing's calculator or Beersmith are all useful). I use the latter.

This will also tell you an estimate for strike temperature (The temperature the water needs to be before you dough in), in order to hit the mash temp closely. (On my system for a 158 mash temp my strike water would be about 163F) Again this would be different for another brewer's setup. I mention it only to provide perspective

In the recipe it calls for a 45 minute mash. This is probably adequate but I usually go 60-90 mins for various reasons. In the three vessel system it will be followed up with considerable time batch or fly sparging during which time more enzymatic activity is likely to proceed. Others will advise very differently here so don't get hung up on this point.

I mash longer to try to get better attenuation and am in no rush on brewday. I do other non-brew-related things during the mash. My pot loses minimal heat.

The only other changes I make to allow for BIAB are a double crush of the grains and usually lowering the grain bill slightly to account for the efficiency of BIAB

Best of luck with the brew.

thanks, that makes more sense now.

 

[fun4stuff]

Looks like I missed something in my original post quote:

Sparge with 4.47 gal of 168.0 F water.

Add water to achieve boil volume of 6.41 gal

Estimated Pre-boil Gravity is: 1.058 SG with all grains/extracts added.

So with the BIAB method, after holding at 158 for 45 (up to 90) minutes, I would increase temp to 168 for 10 minutes, correct? I can make adjustments in the future based on what SG (attenuation) I find myself getting?

Thanks again !!

 

[Gavin C]

I wanna come brew at your place. Just sayin'.

I'm just up the road.

thanks, that makes more sense now.

Glad to be of some help.

 

[soccerdad]

I'm not sure if I saw this above .. if you are mashing at 158 degrees, you may be way too hot adding 12 pounds of grain at 170 or higher. I would dough in at 160 to 162.

 

[Gavin C]

Looks like I missed something in my original post quote:



So with the BIAB method, after holding at 158 for 45 minutes, I would increase temp to 168 for 10 minutes, correct?

Thanks again !!

This is considered a mash-out step of the mash. I do this as part of my standard mash for BIAB. I stir constantly during the 9 minutes or so it takes to go from the saccarification rest to the 168-170F mash-out temperature. Pop the lid back on the pot and let it sit for 10 mins. Then I stir the grains again and pull the bag. The stirring during the heating does a couple of things.
1: Potentially avoids scorching of the bag (there are other ways to prevent this also)
2: Agitates the grain extracting more sugars clinging to the grist.

The stirring prior to pulling the bag (lautering) again helps to rinse out more sugars into the mash

This is my crude understanding of the approach. In theory a mash-out rest may not be needed for BIAB. In my limited personal experience however I find it to add consistency to my efficiency. Again others will have strong cogent rational arguments to rebut my methods and support of a mash-out.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Your posted recipe temperatures confuse me greatly? Keeping it simple, I would mash the grains in 8 gallons at a strike temp of 163, resulting in a mash temp of 154, skip the mashout, stir very well and simply remove the bag after 60 minutes and boil...ymmv cheers!

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for the help guys. Still new to this.

So why does this say its a 90 minute boil if goldings is 60 mins and saaz is 30 mins? Seems like it should be a 60 min boil?

The 90 minute boil is because the boil determines how much DMS is boiled away. Since Pilsner malt contains more of the SMM precursor that produces DMS, the longer boil is recommended to boil it away. You would boil for 30 minutes with no hops, then add your 60 minute hop, boil for 30 minutes and then add the next hop.

 

[paperairplane]

... In theory a mash-out rest may not be needed for BIAB. In my limited personal experience however I find it to add consistency to my efficiency. Again others will have strong cogent rational arguments to rebut my methods and support of a mash-out.

I'm lazy and it's easier to just yank the bag and start the boil... Not sure how cogent that rationale may be...

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'm lazy and it's easier to just yank the bag and start the boil... Not sure how cogent that rationale may be...

Yes agreed! Sometimes mashout, sometimes not....a good lengthy stir is in order either way!

 

[fun4stuff]

Another recipe question to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. For the following recipe steps:

Rest Temp Time
Acid Rest: 0 0 Min
Protein Rest: 140 15 Min
Intermediate Rest: 0 0 Min
Saccharification Rest: 150 60 Min
Mash-out Rest: 168 15 Min
Sparge: 168 60 Min

If I wanted to do this BIAB (no sparge) I would heat total volume water and grain bag to 140 and hold temp for 15 minutes, then heat to 150 and hold for 60 mins, then heat to 168 and hold for 15 mins, then I'd be done and could remove bag and let it drip/squeeze it before proceeding with boil? I just need to make sure I stir and/or have a false bottom to prevent scorching the bag?

To increase efficiency I could increase saccharifcation rest to 90 mins?

 

[RM-MN]

Another recipe question to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. For the following recipe steps:


If I wanted to do this BIAB (no sparge) I would heat total volume water and grain bag to 140 and hold temp for 15 minutes, then heat to 150 and hold for 60 mins, then heat to 168 and hold for 15 mins, then I'd be done and could remove bag and let it drip/squeeze it before proceeding with boil? I just need to make sure I stir and/or have a false bottom to prevent scorching the bag?

To increase efficiency I could increase saccharifcation rest to 90 mins?

Acid rest, not needed
Protein rest, not needed with modern, fully modified malts.
Sacchrification rest, changes the starches to sugar through the action of 2 enzymes, alpha and beta amylase. 60 minutes is the traditional amount of time with a conventional mash tun. For BIAB, if your grains are milled finer, 60 minutes would be plenty and 90 won't change anything. I've found that even 30 minutes is fine with my milling but yours might not be milled as fine so stick with 60.
Mash out pertains only to fly sparging where the grain in the tun would be kept at mash temp for a fairly long time. You won't be fly sparging so you don't need a mash out.
Sparge, only if you mash with less than the full volume needed. My pot is a little small so I use a bit less water, then pour water through the bag to rinse out some more sugars and get to the amount of water I need before I start the boil. Your choice. My sparge step takes about 5 to 10 minutes, not 60 because I don't fly sparge and you won't either. It doesn't pertain when you BIAB.

 

[Gavin C]

Another recipe question to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. For the following recipe steps:


If I wanted to do this BIAB (no sparge) I would heat total volume water and grain bag to 140 and hold temp for 15 minutes, then heat to 150 and hold for 60 mins, then heat to 168 and hold for 15 mins, then I'd be done and could remove bag and let it drip/squeeze it before proceeding with boil? I just need to make sure I stir and/or have a false bottom to prevent scorching the bag?

To increase efficiency I could increase saccharifcation rest to 90 mins?

Keep in mind that this recipe was written by Revvy. No knocking the guy but his stuff usually reads very complicated. This being written by a three vessel brewer,the differing temperatures and some would argue needless rests imply an indirect heating of the mash. To do this with a high level of accuracy one must be extremely adept at controlling the heating of one's mash. Revvy being a three vessel brewer, this was achieved in all probability via a RIMS or a HERMS system with some degree of automation.

In short go with the good-advice from RM-MN and do a single step mash at the saccarification rest temperature. (+/- mash out)

 

[fun4stuff]

Acid rest, not needed
60 minutes is the traditional amount of time with a conventional mash tun. For BIAB, if your grains are milled finer, 60 minutes would be plenty and 90 won't change anything. I've found that even 30 minutes is fine with my milling but yours might not be milled as fine so stick with 60.

I'll know it's enough based on what the SG of the wort is after the saccharification (based on calculated attenuation). So, if my SG matches the recipes expected SG then, I'm good, right?

 

[Gavin C]

I'll know it's enough based on what the SG of the wort is after the saccharification (based on calculated attenuation). So, if my SG matches the recipes expected SG then, I'm good, right?

Take the preboil gravity after the bag is pulled out the mash is now over and whatever sugars you have extracted from the grains ( purpose of the mash) are now in the wort. Give it a bit of a stir. 5 seconds or so just to ensure there is no variation and take your sample. ( not sure this stir is needed but we are talking seconds )

Your gravity reading should be a few points lower than your target gravity at the end of the boil. Water is evaporated off during the boil concentrating the wort. it's gravity will go up. If your calculations are good this increase will correspond to the desired starting gravity upon completion of the boil.

That is one of the fun and trickier aspects of all grain brewing. You are targeting a specific volume and gravity in the FV. All your calculations are done with this end in mind. If your off a bit no worries. You will improve your process next time based on your data from this brew. Each time you brew you will get more accustomed to your equipment. Boil off rates, strike temperatures, required mash times etc. it's very useful to have brewing software as the data can be tweaked each time resulting in a very rapid increase in accuracy.

I generally chose recipes that are well within style guidelines and tweak them based on my data. That way if I'm off a hair on my OG I still end up with a well balanced brew.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Have a peak over at www.biabrewer.info