Help with First AG recipe - SMaSH

[dsaavedra]

So I am planning on moving onto all grain by doing BIAB when I get my bigger kettle, but this won't be for a few months.

In the mean time, I was thinking of getting my feet wet with all grain by doing a 2.5 gallon BIAB batch of SMaSH in my 5 gallon kettle.

I'm having trouble finding a library of SMaSH recipes on this site (I realize they are supposed to be simple but I still need guidance).

What would be a good recipe for a nice, light, kind of hoppy pale ale type SMaSH?

I was playing with Brewer's Friend (first time using that) and I saw that when I put in 6lbs of vienna malt, .5oz cascade @ 60min and .5oz cascade @ 5 min it gave me 1.063 OG with 31.2IBU (with a batch size of 2.5gal, boil size of 3 gal). I like these numbers but will that taste any good?

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Looks good to me. I know each persons rate if boil off is different but I know when I do 2.5 gallon batches I need closer to 3.5-4 gallons boiled down to 2.5-3 seems like you would lose more than a .5 gallon boiling an hour. Again I know everyone's is different just thought I'd mention it incase you weren't sure what volume you'll lose to evaporation.


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[dsaavedra]

That is a good point. I have never really checked my volumes (been doing extract kits and topping off so far) so I don't really know how much I boil off. I also didn't account for liquid that the grain will absorb. How much water do you think I would need to start with after factoring in absorption and boil-off?

Also, I was playing around with the recipe in Brewer's Friend and I was thinking about using Munton's Pale Ale malt, and maybe changing the hop schedule to .5oz @60, .25oz @ 15, .25oz @ flameout. Does that seem like it would make a nice tasty pale ale SMaSH?

 

[Devilsnight]

I'd dryhop it too. I start with about 3.25 gallons and wash the grainbag after mashing with however much water I need to get back to 3.25 before I start the boil. If you can get a really good boil though you'd need more water than this.

 

[sky4meplease]

A recent move to all grain and two batches later revealed a much lower grain absorption than expected for me. Had to boil the #%¥} out of it to cook it down to batch size. I have been meaning to ask my LHBS what they plug in for GA. The mash and sparge water calculator I have been using had a default value of .13 and my next batch I am going to use .055 because that is what it seems I will need to hit my numbers more accurately. Thought I would mention it because that seemed to be a big variable for me moving to all grain as well as boil off rate. Have beer. Drink fun.


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[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I usually just mash at 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. After mashing drain well. Vorlauf&drain an measure the volume that I get. Subtract that from my pre boil total and that is how much sparge water I would need.
So 6# Vienna would mash in to 7.5qts of water around 160F mash for an hour drain probably get around 6 qts then sparge with the balance if pre boil volume 8qts approx.


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[dsaavedra]

I wasn't planning on doing a sparge, but rather mashing out at 170° for approximately 10 minutes (this is the method described in the tutorial in the BIAB section and I've read numerous recommendations for this method). So do you think I should maybe start with 3.5 gallons to account for grain absorption and then boiloff? I am going to keep track of my volumes on the next extract kit I brew so I can have an idea how much I boil off in an hour.

 

[freisste]

Sounds like you aren't going to sparge or squeeze the bag, so you're likely going to have lower efficiency than a calculator would default to. It probably defaults to 70-75%, and I would guess you're going to be ~5-10% below that. Just an FYI in case your really want to hit that OG.

 

[dsaavedra]

I was planning on squeezing the bag after mash out and draining it back into the kettle. Would that increase my efficiency? My previous numbers were with the default 75% efficiency on the calculator.

How much water can I expect to lose by grain absorption from 6lbs of grain? Once I know this and once I monitor my boil off rates I think I will have a good estimate of how much water to start with.

 

[freisste]

Kind of depends on how hard you squeeze. Asking how much your grain will hold is like asking how much a sponge will hold. Certainly it less after a good squeeze. I think a common number is 0.1gal/lb. So roughly 0.6 gallons in your case.

But then you'll squeeze some out...

 

[dsaavedra]

I see... So then I guess a better case is how much wort can I retrieve from the grain? Sorry for all the questions, this is my first time and I just want to get my feet wet with all grain!

 

[Hjandersen]

I usually go by just about a liter of water absorption per kg grain (sorry for the unit-confusion). IF you are looking to simplify the process just do at full volume mash and don't sparge..

E.g.

1. 4.2 gal of water, 4-6 pound grain (include acidulated malt!!)
2. Take bag out - give a little squeeze (or don't)
3. Leaves you with 3 - 3.25 gal wort
4. Boil off 0.5 - 1 gal
5. Ferment 2.5 - 3 gal (of around 1045-1065)


Efficiency with this approach should be around 55-70%..

 

[dsaavedra]

I usually go by just about a liter of water absorption per kg grain (sorry for the unit-confusion). IF you are looking to simplify the process just do at full volume mash and don't sparge..

E.g.

1. 4.2 gal of water, 4-6 pound grain (include acidulated malt!!)
2. Take bag out - give a little squeeze (or don't)
3. Leaves you with 3 - 3.25 gal wort
4. Boil off 0.5 - 1 gal
5. Ferment 2.5 - 3 gal (of around 1045-1065)


Efficiency with this approach should be around 55-70%..

That's more or less the route I want to take. I do plan on squeezing the bag to get as much out of it as I can. What is acidulated malt? I've not encountered that term before.

 

[Hjandersen]

That's more or less the route I want to take. I do plan on squeezing the bag to get as much out of it as I can. What is acidulated malt? I've not encountered that term before.

Well, don't stress the squeezing - who cares if you gain 1-3% efficiency - The equivalent base malt cost may be 0.1-0.2$.

So when you do a full volume mash you have some advantages and some disadvantages. Aside from the efficiency issue your very thin mash is properly, to say the least, not going to end up in a suitable mash ph-range (especially if you're going for a lighter or reddish beer!). This is also a frequent problem outside of BIAB. The high ph will decrease efficiency further and extract unwanted flavors which could lead to astringency.

The severity of these issues are very much dependent on the composition of your water and I sense that you're not up for looking further into that as of now.. Correct me if I'm wrong...?

My beers improved significantly upon the addition of 2% acidulated malt - I suggest you start out with 1%, then 1.5% and etc. You can't hit a perfect pH without a ph-meter - but this approach allows you to get in the ballpark... There are other ways to acidify your mash but i find this to be easy and beginner friendly (you can't really mess it up..)

Btw. acidulated malt is a completely natural product where lactic bacteria are inoculated in the barley before kilning.

 

[dsaavedra]

You're totally right... I kind of wanted to just take $20 to the homebrew store, come home with some malt and hops, and brew a decent, drinkable beer for my first all grain. I'm not looking to win any awards with it.

I appreciate you bringing pH issues to my attention however. I have heard that pH is important in mashing, but I've never really read up on it. Silly question but I also keep aquariums in addition to homebrewing, could I use aquarium test kits to check the pH of my water/mash?

 

[Hjandersen]

Yep. It sure would give you a feeling of where to go..
The reason I suggest a small addition is because you VERY likely will need to bring down the pH. You can brew a batch without considering it - but with a very thin mash like this I think it could give you a rather subpar beer..

 

[Weezy]

As you know, I'm sure, the biggest issues going from extract to AG are managing water volumes and water temp & pH control. If you're doing small batch, which is what I do too, I've found that pH isn't very problematic if you use RO water. Without all the minerals it has practically no buffering capacity so it is quite willing to move to the mid 5s when you mash in. Hjanderson is still right; you need to watch it. And I've used the 1-2% Acidulated malt trick with light malt bills to good effect. Test a bit of wort 10 minutes after dough in, with your kit.

I do 2-3 gallon batches on the stove in 5 gallon Walmart stainless and get a gallon boil off rate with a less than powerful gas burner.

Your Vienna smash sounds good too me!

I personally use a bag but don't do full volume mashes. The small batch size gives you a lot of flexibility. I'll use two stove top pots, one to mash at more traditional water:grain ratio, then dunk sparge in a second pot of water at ~170F, then squeeze the bag (buy some brewers gloves). Very easy. The bag ends up acting as a false bottom and eliminates the need for a vorlauf.

Ask the LHBS to double crush the grain too!

 

[Crafty_Brewer]

When I did BIAB, I observed the following:
*your system can and will be different

5 gallon kettle (polarware economy kettle)
1-2 gallon batch

Boil off: 3 quarts for a 60 minute boil

Grain Absorption: 1/3 quart of water per pound of grain (assuming squeezing the grain)

water to grain ratio: for starters try about 2.5 quarts per pound of grain

mash temps: my infusion temps are typically 10F above my target mash temp

infusion temp 163F

target temp 153F

You will lose temps alarmingly fast. I observed a 4F drop in 15 min insulating with towels. You likely will need to fire the burner...if you keep the heat low, stir like mad, you shouldn't have a problem scorching the bag. Using a space blanket, I observed a 2F drop over 15 min.

Here's a thread I made on my first BIAB (with pictures!)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/my-first-all-grain-brew-461996/#post5940309

hope it helps....

 

[dsaavedra]

I'm beginning to wonder if my 5 gallon kettle will be able to handle the 4 gallons of water it looks like I'll need plus 6 pounds of grain. I guess this could be avoided by not doing a full volume mash and then sparging right into my kettle to get the pre-boil volume where I need it?

 

[Weezy]

6 lbs of grain will take up about 1/2 gallon of space in the mash (submerged). At full volume, allowing for loss to grain, youre at 4.7 gallons or so for a full volume mash.

 

[dsaavedra]

That might be pushing it in my little pot, wouldn't leave much room for stirring... If it doesn't all fit, would there be any problem with just not adding as much water? I assume this will give me a higher gravity beer but would that affect the quality/taste of it? This is looking like it will be a fun little learning experience. I hope I will get something decent out of it.

 

[Crafty_Brewer]

BIAB is interesting as it keeps your pre boil volume manageable. As you account for the room the grain takes up, you end up with more headroom on the boil....which reduces the chances of a boil over. Don't get stuck with a specific amount of grain or water. All quantities are adjustable. I wouldn't bother adding water post boil, or even doing a sparge....just make a smaller batch.

 

[Weezy]

You'll want a bigger pot,
or you'll want to mash with less water and sparge with a second pot.

 

[dsaavedra]

Making a smaller batch might be the route I take on this one. It seems like it would be an awful lot of work for the 9 or 10 beers I'd get from a one gallon batch but at the same time it looks like it will be a fun adventure into all grain BIAB and not much of a money investment buying a couple pounds of grain and a pack of hops. Now to find a small enough fermenter...

 

[Crafty_Brewer]

Making a smaller batch might be the route I take on this one. It seems like it would be an awful lot of work for the 9 or 10 beers I'd get from a one gallon batch but at the same time it looks like it will be a fun adventure into all grain BIAB and not much of a money investment buying a couple pounds of grain and a pack of hops. Now to find a small enough fermenter...

How about this one?

http://brewgadgets.com/p-213-20-gallon-fermenting-bucket.aspx

I have four of them lol.

And its not work if its fun.

And I secondaried a barleywine in this:
http://brewgadgets.com/p-263-1-gallon-glass-jug.aspx

 

[dsaavedra]

My LBHS has 2 or 2.5 gallon buckets for around 5 bucks too. I might pick one or two up next time I'm there. Do they sell 3 gallon jugs of drinking water at the grocery store or anything? Would one of those work as a fermenter?

 

[Weezy]

I've seen the 3 gallon returnable water jugs being used. I want one for a grain mill hopper.

These are nice but a bit more money... you can bottle right from it if your careful.
http://www.brewdemon.com/conical-fermenting-system.html

 

[Crafty_Brewer]

You can ferment in just about anything airtight, and inert. If its plastic, check the numbers in the triangle out. 1, 2, 4, and 5 are ok to use. PET, HDPE, LDPE, and PP respectively. HDPE is the best. Glass of course is always inert. I'm looking at some Low's HDPE 5 gallon buckets for doing 3-4 gallon batches. Here's the wiki on resin codes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin_identification_code

 

[dsaavedra]

Thanks for the link. I'm going to take a good hard look at the water containers at the grocery store next week. I will probably come home with a new fermenter!!!