Help with Caramel Chocolate Coffee Stout

[mallob9]

Ok, my lady requested a Caramel Chocolate Coffee Stout and here is what I came up with. I based it loosely off of Lumpy Gravy's Caramel Coffee Stout

I have a few questions before I go diving into this. Here's the recipe;

Recipe: Caramel Cult Catastrophe
Style: American Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 66.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 56.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 52.0 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.3 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 9.3 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.3 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 5 9.3 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 9.3 %
3.5 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 1.6 %
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 8 49.6 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
2.50 oz Coffee (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 10 -
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 7.1 IBUs
8.00 oz Caramel (Boil 5.0 mins) Flavor 12 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 13 -
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 7.5 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 5.39 gal of water at 164.5 F 152.0 F 60 min
Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, , 3.15gal) of 168.0 F water

So the questions are, could I melt the candies down in condensed milk and add that to the boil instead of adding just melted candies (which would be a PITA to do) and lactose. Basically, do you think condensed milk would make a gross or off flavor?

Thanks!

View attachment Caramel Cult Catastrophe.xml

View attachment Caramel Cult Catastrophe.bsmx

 

[bethebrew]

The whole recipe is "gross". It's grossly over specialty malted, GROSSLY over black and roasted barley in particular.

I just can't even imagine how this would turn out, other than a nasty bitter mud.

So, if it were me doing something like chocolatey and coffee stout, I would use more chocolate malt than normal, pick up some coffee malt. Maybe try adding some chocolate nibs to secondary along with cold brewed coffee.

 

[cheezydemon3]

IDK about "gross" but it will be a palate melter!

Too much going on.

Caramel coffee

Or

Chocolate Coffe

IMHO.

 

[mallob9]

Noted - a little harsh though. I'm new to this whole making up recipes and AG brewing in general so take it easy. I have adjusted the grain-bill and brought the SRM down to 40.

Here's the updated grains;

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs 14.8 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 64.5 %
1 lbs 9.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 2 11.5 %
1 lbs 7.4 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3 10.5 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 7.2 %
9.3 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.2 %
4.4 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6 2.0 %
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 7 47.7 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 8 -
2.50 oz Coffee (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
0.75 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 5.1 IBUs
8.00 oz Caramel (Boil 5.0 mins) Flavor 11 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 12

So back to the original question. Will condensed milk make the truly gross? Can I melt the candies in condensed milk then just add the whole bit? Or, should I double boil JUST the candies and add them along w/ a bit of lactose?

Thanks again!

 

[RonPopeil]

Since you're using lactose I would start with a milk stout recipe.

I like this one.
http://www.beersmith.com/Recipes2/recipe_353.htm

If you want a stronger caramel flavor sub out the crystal 80 for 120. For the chocolate I would add a 1-1.5 lbs of chocolate malt as well as 2-4 ounces of unsweetened bakers chocolate. Melt it down in the microwave and dunk it in the kettle at 20 minutes or so. Also, cut the ibis down to the 30's. You want a sweet stout. No sense in covering it all with hops.

Ferment with a poor attenuating yeast like wlp004 with a mash temp of 150-153. If you have a good attenuating yeast like wlp007 or a California ale variant mash at 154-156.

For the coffee do a lb of whole green beans in secondary.

The trick is going to be balance. There's a few flavors duking it out for tongue space here. I think using chocolate malt as well as chocolate and using c120 for the caramel/toffee component will help blend flavors together rather than having those flavors all directly added. The green coffee beans are mellowed than roasted so that could help as well.

That's what I would do first. See how it goes. You can find whole green coffee beans at any place that roasts coffee.

 

[bethebrew]

The reason you probably don't want to use condensed milk is that it has a lot of milk protein. Often no fat, but maybe fat too. Of course you are adding cocoa powder too, which has fat. So I don't think either extra protein, and certainly fats, are desirable in beer in general. I would stick with the lactose on the milk end, it's traditional in Guinness at least.

Maybe you could dissolve the caramels in some water added in your double boiler. Chop them up some first. The lactose could be added to that after you get the caramels melted down, then put into your boil at 10 mins. to go.

I think you might want to drop the Crystal and Biscuit back to 1 lb. each, pretty high percentages of each.

 

[mallob9]

I figured condensed milk would be no good. I have revamped the recipe a good bit. Got the IBU's way down and have fewer specialty grains. I was planning on using cocoa powder, would there be a benefit to the bars?

The recipe yet again;

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 65.3 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.2 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.2 %
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4 8.2 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.1 %
8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.1 %
0.25 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 12.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 15.8 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
8.00 oz Caramel (Boil 5.0 mins) Flavor 10 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 11 -
1.00 lb Whole Green Coffee Beans (Secondary 0.0 Flavor 12 -

Thanks again

 

[RonPopeil]

I figured condensed milk would be no good. I have revamped the recipe a good bit. Got the IBU's way down and have fewer specialty grains. I was planning on using cocoa powder, would there be a benefit to the bars?

The recipe yet again;

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 65.3 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.2 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.2 %
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4 8.2 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.1 %
8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.1 %
0.25 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 12.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 15.8 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
8.00 oz Caramel (Boil 5.0 mins) Flavor 10 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 11 -
1.00 lb Whole Green Coffee Beans (Secondary 0.0 Flavor 12 -

Thanks again

looks alright. i'd cut the wheat and split the crystal 120 with crystal 80 as well. your hopping is a bit odd. you're getting more IBU's at 30 minutes then 60. nothing really "wrong" about it but if you have .75oz of the magnum you could cross the sterling off completely. not much use for a later hop addition here anyway. if anything for a late addition i'd do .25oz around 20 minutes but i couldn't tell you what sterling tastes like either.

i don't think adding caramel is going to go well. caramel is made from butter and sugar which means it has fats in it. i would look for a caramel flavoring to add to secondary rather than adding a caramel product. plus it's going to ferment out. a lighter candy syrup would provide the same properties without fats.

 

[mallob9]

I was unsure of how the caramel would go as well. I was thinking of using a caramel flavored coffee in the last 10 of boil or so. That and rely on the caramel characteristics of the crystal. I'm using those hops because that's what I have left over from my last brew. Maybe i'll just do the whole combined oz at 60 and call it done.

 

[mallob9]

What do you think about using a caramel extract in the secondary? Is that what you're referring to by caramel flavoring?

 

[nicklepickles]

Dont boil your coffee, youll just drive away the volatile compounds. Save it for fermentation at least, though i think the best tome to add it is at bottling

 

[RonPopeil]

What do you think about using a caramel extract in the secondary? If I go the extract route, how much do you think I would need for the 5 gal batch? I think that could work pretty well.

without bumping up the crystal malts extract would be your best bet. how much would depend on the specific product you're using. not all flavorings are the same. the ones that i've seen sold for use in brewing are usually 1-2 oz per 5 gals.

 

[mallob9]

5.00 gal Distilled Water Water 1 -
1 lbs Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 2 7.0 %
8.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.5 %
7.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.1 %
6.1 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.6 %
9 lbs 14.4 oz Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.5 SRM) Extract 6 68.9 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [9.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 17.5 IBUs
2.4 oz Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil for 55 min](275. Sugar 8 1.0 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 6.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [3.80 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop 10 5.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml Yeast 11 -
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 12 7.0 %
1 lbs Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 13 7.0 %

 

[mallob9]

Didn't mean to post that, I copied the wrong recipe. That's a Belgian Strong Dark Ale I did a few weeks ago.

I was thinking of doing whole green coffee beens in the secondary as RonPopeil suggested earlier. I just called a local coffee shop and they said around $6/lb depending on the type. I'm gonna ask if they have something that will impart a caramel flavor.

As for the extract, I was just going to add 1 tsp at bottling and see how I like it and go up by 1/2 tsp until it's what I'm looking for.

So here is what I think may be the final recipe, please feel free to share any and all ideas/suggestions;

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs 1.9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 71.4 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.8 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.1 %
12.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.7 %
8.5 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.7 %
0.75 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 20.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 9.7 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
8.00 oz Caramel (Boil 5.0 mins) Flavor 10 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 11 -
1.00 lb Whole Green Coffee Beans (Secondary 0.0 Flavor 12 -

Thanks for all of your input thus far!

 

[RonPopeil]

no worries. you still have 8oz of caramel in your recipe. you said you were going extract at bottling so i'm confused. otherwise you're looking pretty good. i think you'll get a pretty pronounced caramel flavor with C80 and C120 to the tune of 1.5#

from what you posted i think you have your hops backwards. the way you have it set you're looking at 16 IBU. if you flip them you're at 35 which makes more sense.

 

[mallob9]

I forgot to take the caramel out, I am going with the extract.

As for the IBU's, the way I have it, beersmith is telling me i'm at 30.6. Any ideas as to why you're getting something different? I'll try it again when I get home and see if for some reason I come up with something different.

Also, is there a benefit to using solid bakers chocolate and melting it down vs. just adding cocoa powder?

 

[bethebrew]

I forgot to take the caramel out, I am going with the extract.

As for the IBU's, the way I have it, beersmith is telling me i'm at 30.6. Any ideas as to why you're getting something different? I'll try it again when I get home and see if for some reason I come up with something different.

Also, is there a benefit to using solid bakers chocolate and melting it down vs. just adding cocoa powder?

You have a nice recipe already. Personally I would forego the caramel extract as well. Let the malts do the flavoring, you are getting it already.

Cocoa powder or chocolate are not really good beer additions. Too much head destroying fat for both. Chocolate has sugar, lecithin, vanillin and a lot of fat as well. Seems a problem to get into the beer. I used to use cocoa powder in beer and it wasn't a good thing. Up the chocolate malt to a pound that wouldn't be too much IMO.

The coffee I would add at bottling. I think cold steeping it makes sense. Not sure about soaking the beans in secondary maybe that would work as well.

 

[mallob9]

How do breweries like Southern Tier make beers like Choklat? That tastes like you're eating a cake.

I'm up in the air about the extract as well, I was thinking the malts could do most of the talking. I was planning to add the caramel at bottling so if it tasted caramelly enough, then I would leave it out.

 

[RonPopeil]

i believe southern tier use extracts. i have no other ideas on how to make a creme' brulee' stout.

 

[mallob9]

I checked beersmith again and the IBU's came out the same. How did you calculate them?

I've removed the caramel and upped the chocolate malt to 1 lb;

10 lbs 1.9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 70.1 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.7 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.9 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.9 %
8.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.7 %
8.5 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.7 %
0.75 oz Sterling [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 20.7 IBUs
0.25 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 9.7 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins) Flavor 9 -
1.0 pkg Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) [124.21 ml Yeast 10 -
1.00 lb Whole Green Coffee Beans (Secondary 0.0 Flavor 11 -

 

[mallob9]

wouldn't they have to put that on the bottle of they used it? i read somewhere (pretty sure it was on this site) that if extracts are used it has to be on the bottle. but i agree, that Creme Brulee is ridiculous and seems like it would be impossible to achieve that flavor without extracts. I think this is gonna be my recipe unless there is any more advice/suggestions.

Next saturday is the day, i'll probably pick up ingredients tomorrow on my way home from work.

Thanks again for all of your advice up until this point. I really appreciate it.

 

[mallob9]

So I bought the ingredients yesterday. I'm going with the last recipe posted except I added 8.5 oz of coffee malt because my LHBS had it. I figured I'll add less coffee beans to the secondary this way. Brewday is on saturday so i'll check back after it's done.

Thanks again everyone!