Help with all grain

[Polarbeer]

Hello all,

First of all I wanted to say that this is my 2nd all grain batch so I am pretty new to it. I really enjoy doing it but I have been a bit discouraged because I've never had trouble with extract. So I had a series of questions:

1. I am using a 48q cooler with a CPVC manifold for a mash tun and I had 10# of grain which I mixed with 2.5 gal at 135F for my first infusion. This brought me to 122F for 30 min (temp dropped a degree or two) then I added 5q of boiling water attempting to bring the temp up to 155F (I got these volumes and temps from Papazian). However 5q only brought it to a meager ~135F. After trying my two different thermometers I decided to add more water to get it up to 155F. I FINALLY did this after adding another 1.25 gal of boiling water. I also found that I only got a reading at 155F once I moved my thermometer probe to a new location in the mash tun. So my questions are: will the volume of mash water drastically affect my brew? Should I address a thermometer problem? Whats a good gravity to be at for the runnings at the end of sparging (I was at 1.010)?

2. I would also like to note that this is the first time I've used an immersion coil to cool my beer and had some questions about this. I found that my immersion coil really did not cool my beer that fast at all. In fact with a hose water temp of 75F it took me 45 min-1hr to drop my 5 gal batch to 85F. Should it take this long? How much does flow rate matter? How can I improve this cooling time?

3. Being already frustrated, I pitched my yeast when the beer was at 85F by accident. Luckily this didn't kill them because the air lock was rolling (~15 times/minute) the next morning. How will this heat shock affect the beer? Is it a huge deal?

If you made it this far thank you. On a side note all grain brewing is significantly more fun than extract... despite my complications.

 

[Richardhead]

Ok by no means I am a master brewer but what happed to you is what happened to me on my first batch of beer two years ago so maybe I can help.I used a 48q cooler like yours once and once only I could not hold my temperature so I bought a 10gal gott cooler and made a manifold for it and it holds great.I always heat my water to 170f I do this because when you add grain it takes heat away-when I mix my grain in my temps are always 155f to 158f I use a single infusion and hold this temp for an hour remember I am not a pro but I make good beerAfter an hour I sparge with 170f water for about 30 to 45 min depending on how many homebrews I drank -I sparge till the wort is not sticky between my fingers and has no sweet taste I have never taken a hydrometer reading after sparging only before it hits the fermenter.On cooling you beer I use a counter flow chiller I made so have never used a immersion chiller but I have seen brewers put those in a ice water bath to chill the wort down to temp.Your beer will be fine it will be something you made and mistakes are what homebrewing is-to make us think-solve problems-to craft something-To Enjoy!!!!
Remember Relax And Have A HomeBrew!!!!

 

[heckels]

1. In regards to temps, volumes etc. I highly suggest getting some software like brewtarget (free) or beer smith ($20). This software is great for identifying where you should be for volumes, infusion temps, and pre-boil and original gravities as well as determining efficiency.

As for your volume impacting your gravity, typically you don't want to mash too far above 2 qt/lb of grain. Without seeing your recipe it's hard to determine where exactly you were at. Ultimately, more water in your mash means less on your sparge. Your gravity pre-boil of 1.010 seems a little low to me as most of the time I'm right around .015 or so lower than post-boil. That would equate to a 1.025 beer. If you went on the volumes from the recipe and did not adjust for the extra infusion water this would explain a low SG.

2. I can typically take mine from boiling to 80F in about 20 mins but my ground water is significantly cooler than yours. Increasing either the diameter or length of your coil will help cool it quicker. You also want to keep a pretty good flow going. Faster at first since the warmer the wort the quicker it will change the temp of your water in the chiller. After that you can cut it down a little.

3. The higher temps cause vigorous fermentation and yeast stress which typically result in off flavors and phenols (such as banana and clove flavors).

 

[Petho]

I use an imersion chiller and have warm faucet water however I put the boil kettle into an ice bath while using the chiller. The icy cold bath helps cool the wort below 70 deg within 45 minutes worst case.

 

[1MadScientist]

I used an immersion chiller yesterday here in Florida using municipal city water. I got it down to 82*F in 20 minutes. I stood over the kettle the whole time whipping air into it. My other recent brew using an IC, I borrowed a friends IC to use as a pre-chiller with ice.

I pitched a packet of dry yeast on it at 80*F and hoping the temperature would drop to my determined temperature before the yeast realized what was happening. I taped (blue) the temp sensor to the corny as in the 9/21/11 photo, see link below. I pitched when I did while the wort was freshly aerated.

Of my last 8 BIAB batches, 6 were a no chill were I pitched the yeast when I was good and ready. I wanted this current one chilled because I made it before and it was yummy, a Dead Guy...

 

[Polarbeer]

Richardhead: I think that I am going to try a single infusion for my next batch and see if I can hold at 155F for an hr. I think that if I wrap it in a couple of blankets I should have no problem with this.

Heckels: Thanks for the advice. I'm sort of a budget brewer so I think I will try out the brewtarget soft ware. I've tried one of these before and it was asking alot of questions about grain to water ratios and brewery efficiency which I either did not know or have not calculated. The recipe was a belgium wit from austin homebrew site:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Belgian Wit, WLP400
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.046
Final Gravity: 1.011
IBU: 14
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 3.4 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.0 %
3.00 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 30.0 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 10.0 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 10.0 %
0.50 oz Cascade [6.90%] (45 min) Hops 10.0 IBU
0.50 oz Cascade [6.90%] (10 min) Hops 3.9 IBU
0.18 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.18 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.35 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat

Mash Profile
Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body
Mash Grain Weight: 10.00 lb
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F S
parge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 3.79 gal

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Protein Rest Add 10.00 qt of water at 131.1 F 122.0 F 30 min
Saccrification Add 7.00 qt of water at 208.0 F 154.0 F 30 min
Mash Out Direct Heat to 168.0 F over 2 min 168.0 F 10 min

I didn't follow this very closely because I had read a general formula in Papazian and just used the water amts described in my previous post.

All: I don't know why my IC was taking so long to cool. I will try a combo ice bath/chiller next time.

Do you all have any other suggestions to make my brewing go a little smoother next time?

 

[SilverZero]

For calculating volumes and temperatures, I like this calculator and I'll usually cross-check and do other calculations with these tools. I usually do a double batch sparge and heat my sparge water to 185F if I can get it there before my mash time is complete. By the time it's in my HLT and then half of that is in the mash tun, it's around 175F. I've had great results.

 

[Aunt_Ester]

First order of business: I encourage you to play with batch-sparging for a time to get comfortable with your equipment and process. By getting rid of a couple of variables you can practice your skills at all-grain brewing and develop a better understanding of what you are doing. Revisit more demanding styles of brewing later on once you've mastered the basics.

1. A. I'm not sure I understand your volume question. The volume of the water will affect the mash temperature, yes. Pre-heating and learning which volumes of which temperature with help you hit the desired rests. Experimenting is all part of the game. Unfortunately, I use a much smaller cooler so I cannot advise you on this part.

B. 1.010 gravity is about perfect to conclude your sparge. Any more and you'll probably get a grainy and/or astringent taste in the beer. Also, keep in mind that PH plays a big concern when continous-sparging. Although your temp is less than 170 degrees and your concluding sparge gravity is still 1.010, you can still pull a lot of awful flavors.

*Tip if you miss your volume by the end of your sparge (meaning you hit 1.010 before you've collected enough) just add water to the kettle to top it off. Take good notes and try to get it right next time. Don't get discouraged.

2. How long and what diameter is your immersion chiller (IC)? I use a modest 25ft 3/16th hose and I'm usually sitting pretty in about 15 minutes with a finishing 5.25 gallon wort. 1MadScientists' suggestion of a pre-chiller may do you good. But I would experiment with brewing at different times a day (early morning or evening for outdoor taps).

3. Keep in mind that most of the flavors you get from fermentation are within the first 72 hours. You're gonna have a helluva time getting the temp down from 85 since fermentation is exothermic and the fermentation will continue to raise the temp of the wort. You might have sweet, tangy phenols, and unfortunately phenols dont go away no matter how much you age. You might consider an old fridge with an external temp controller to help you manage your temps. I personally chill my wort with my IC until it's approximately 70, then I airlock it and stick it in the fridge for several hours until it's at 60 degrees. I then pitch my yeast starter and begin raising my temps a couple degrees each day. Since I started controlling my fermentation my beer has become unbelievably better and ready to drink much sooner (shaving weeks off the wait!).

But keep the faith. This really varies from strain to strain. Especially if you've made a starter. Belgian yeasts like you're using are crazy and are always full of surprises!

 

[VladOfTrub]

Kudos to you on your 2nd batch!! Don't get discouraged. Your doing fine. The 122 degree protein rest helped you out. You doughed in with 10 qts. of water, good. Then you added enough water to go from 122 to 135 then to 155, good. You just didn't go to 168 to stop conversion, so what. You'll get
into the swing. Most guys start out with a one temp infusion. You jumped right in and did a type of step mash procedure, very good. You sparged down to 1010, good. Next time, use iodine to see if you converted. You had not an overly thin mash. Even if you did and your boiler is big enough to handle all the wort, so what. Boil it down. The mash may hold about a pint or so per pound anyway. I think we all started with an immersion cooler. The next best is the counterflow. The next best is a plate chiller and pump. Don't stir so violently as to whip air into the wort while it is still hot. Aerate after you chill it. Hot side aeration isn't the best thing for beer. A gentle whirlpooling is ok to get the hops and hot break away from whatever you use to move the wort from the boiler. Try to get your wort after boiling below 160 degrees as quick as possible. Dimethyl Sulfide will re-form in the wort the longer it stays above 160. I have a feeling you'll investigate decoction mashing.

 

[asterix404]

Good job on reading papizan, it's a great book. I will now address you points 1 by 1.

1. I am using a 48q cooler with a CPVC manifold for a mash tun and I had 10# of grain which I mixed with 2.5 gal at 135F for my first infusion. This brought me to 122F for 30 min (temp dropped a degree or two) then I added 5q of boiling water attempting to bring the temp up to 155F (I got these volumes and temps from Papazian). However 5q only brought it to a meager ~135F. After trying my two different thermometers I decided to add more water to get it up to 155F. I FINALLY did this after adding another 1.25 gal of boiling water. I also found that I only got a reading at 155F once I moved my thermometer probe to a new location in the mash tun. So my questions are: will the volume of mash water drastically affect my brew? Should I address a thermometer problem? Whats a good gravity to be at for the runnings at the end of sparging (I was at 1.010)?

You really do need to add 1.25-1.5qt/lb and for a 10# batch you are looking at about 5G of strike and sparge water. The 122 as mentioned above was a great protein rest, for now... unless you are working with wheat, only do a single infusion up to scarification rest at about 152-154. When figuring out rest schedules keep in mind that you do need to end up with about 5G at the end so I typically do 2.5G at 122 and 2.5 at 152.

You move your termomiter and it gives you a new reading because of two reasons, there is a dynamo (essentially heat movement) within the cooler so you put it to different places and it will give you different readings. Wrap your cooler in blankets and you will be fine. The next thing is that your heat has not dispersed yet. It takes about 10min to reach an equilibrium point. Keep this in mind when adding boiling water and it it REALLY hot or cold, mix it around for a bit and let it sit for a few minutes and take another reading before adding more boiling water or cold water.

2. I would also like to note that this is the first time I've used an immersion coil to cool my beer and had some questions about this. I found that my immersion coil really did not cool my beer that fast at all. In fact with a hose water temp of 75F it took me 45 min-1hr to drop my 5 gal batch to 85F. Should it take this long? How much does flow rate matter? How can I improve this cooling time?

You want to drop temperature quickly, using an immersion chiller is a great way to do this using cold water. I have found stirring the wort with it cools off the wort much faster than just letting it sit there. Also I have found that cooling depends greatly on the season with water in my pipes in the winter near 34deg and in the summer closer to 65. You will not get your temp below that of the tap water.

3. Being already frustrated, I pitched my yeast when the beer was at 85F by accident. Luckily this didn't kill them because the air lock was rolling (~15 times/minute) the next morning. How will this heat shock affect the beer? Is it a huge deal?

This is sort of a huge deal but not a deal breaker. You will have esters in your beer that are most unexpected and possibly bad, but it will give you a drinkable beer.

All in all, your 10# of grain should provide a FG of about 54. That is about 75% efficiency and the number almost everyone in this forum will target. Getting in the 48-54 range is great. You do want to take the reading as close to 70 as possible, 85 isn't bad. What was your OG? I might have missed something in the comments, but basically, it sounds like you found out one of the many pitfalls of step mashing, keep at it, you most likely got a good drinkable beer.

 

[Polarbeer]

Wow! I'm very surprised by the quality of responses I got from this. It was very unexpected so thank you. I think it is best to just do a single infusion at 155F for an hr and once I am able to make consistent beer go to something more complicated. Do you all have any recommendations for fly sparging vs batch sparging? Which one is better for a beginner? I was fly sparging and honestly hadn't even heard of batch sparging until yesterday.

asterix404: I think that you're definitely right... now that I think of it I really didn't stir the grain very well after adding water and I also did not give it time to equilibrate. I'll have to calculate my brewhouse efficiency for my next batch.

aunt_ester: my IC is 20' of 3/8". I would like to make a counterflow exc because I'm a huge DIYer and think it would be fun. Are counterflow better heat exchangers than IC? The only thing I'm worried about is if I only have a 20' coil then that might not give me enough length to get proper cooling because of my high cooling water temp.

All: What is the name of the mixing blade you can attach to a screwdriver to aerate your wort? I think one of these would help me aerate better than just shaking the bottle.

 

[SilverZero]

Wow! I'm very surprised by the quality of responses I got from this. It was very unexpected so thank you. I think it is best to just do a single infusion at 155F for an hr and once I am able to make consistent beer go to something more complicated. Do you all have any recommendations for fly sparging vs batch sparging? Which one is better for a beginner? I was fly sparging and honestly hadn't even heard of batch sparging until yesterday.

asterix404: I think that you're definitely right... now that I think of it I really didn't stir the grain very well after adding water and I also did not give it time to equilibrate. I'll have to calculate my brewhouse efficiency for my next batch.

aunt_ester: my IC is 20' of 3/8". I would like to make a counterflow exc because I'm a huge DIYer and think it would be fun. Are counterflow better heat exchangers than IC? The only thing I'm worried about is if I only have a 20' coil then that might not give me enough length to get proper cooling because of my high cooling water temp.

All: What is the name of the mixing blade you can attach to a screwdriver to aerate your wort? I think one of these would help me aerate better than just shaking the bottle.

Batch sparging is much easier and may actually be better (than a failed/stuck fly sparge). As for mixing, you could head down to Home Depot or similar and get a paint-mixing paddle, it attaches to a drill. Get the big one for 5-gallon buckets. I have a small one I use for paint (gasp!) so I haven't tried it myself on beer, but I'm sure it will work well.

 

[Aunt_Ester]

asterix404: I think that you're definitely right... now that I think of it I really didn't stir the grain very well after adding water and I also did not give it time to equilibrate. I'll have to calculate my brewhouse efficiency for my next batch.

This goes for batch-sparging, too. Once you drain your cooler the first time, add the sparge water (68 degrees) back to the cooler and stir. Failing to stir may result in a stuck sparge no matter what your set up is. After that allow the mash to rest for 10-15 minutes to makes sure the enzymes are denatured and then drain again. Very simple and very little risk of extracting tannins.

aunt_ester: my IC is 20' of 3/8". I would like to make a counterflow exc because I'm a huge DIYer and think it would be fun. Are counterflow better heat exchangers than IC? The only thing I'm worried about is if I only have a 20' coil then that might not give me enough length to get proper cooling because of my high cooling water temp.

I cannot really give you any advice at the moment since I've never made one myself. I believe John Palmer has a few pages on constructing one in his book. His book is available at howtobrew.com. The counterflow should save you some water (at least I believe that's its purpose) and should work faster. Honestly, I would probably move to a pre-chiller before I would go through the tedium of making a counterflow. I remember seeing a pre-chiller on rebelbrewer.com called "Chinchilla." It's basically a mini IC that you put in a ice bucket to cool down the water temp from the faucet before it makes contact with your wort.

Hope the info's helpful! Keep the faith! :rockin:

 

[Polarbeer]

Thank you for the replies I will let you all know how my next one turns out. I'm thinking pumpkin beer for T-day

 

[SilverZero]

Thank you for the replies I will let you all know how my next one turns out. I'm thinking pumpkin beer for T-day

You're kegging, right? You may not have enough time to bottle condition/carb before Thanksgiving. It's only 4 weeks away!