augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The yellow ones right? if so I use the same... Just make sure they are crimped well... you can tell if you have a problem since the wire and area will get very warm from the increased resistance of a poor connection.
HELP!! SSR smoked in middle of boil. Overide options?
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The yellow ones right? if so I use the same... Just make sure they are crimped well... you can tell if you have a problem since the wire and area will get very warm from the increased resistance of a poor connection.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
This is the yellow plastic you mean right? It had a ring not the prong type. This is after it fried and and moved the wires together. The wire was definitely hot. You can see the black on the wire and it smells like melting plastic....This is what I Never want to see again...Hopefully the Crydom works out...I just want "perfect connections" so I have no issues
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Why are thier multiple wires connected there on the same terminal? Or is that after you moved them to finish brewing? There was definitely too much resistance going on there.
Jeebus that looks dangerous!
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
This was after it Fried and rigged to finish brew day. Is there a way to test where the resistance started. Like working backwards to find the issue.
If only the one wire fried does it stand to reason somewhere on that line there was a loose connection...unless of course it was the SSR that smoked and cooked the line near the connection.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yeah I think the source of your issue very well could have been the ssr.. the fact that one connector looks good and im assuming the one going out to the element ? fried indicates it was the ssr or that particular connection that was the weakest point.
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JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
The wire/terminal that fried was the power in line.
The good terminal goes to a switch that goes to the element
The wire that fried was only hot at the last 3" on the SSR side. The rest of the wire and other connection at the buss bar was cool.
Nothing else in the entire control panel was even warm
bruce_the_loon
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if the surface of the heatsink or the base of the SSR aren't properly flat and when you clamped it down, the tension distorted the metal base of the SSR and created an gap between the internal components and the base and reduced heat transfer. I've seen crappy switchmode power supplies where the switching transistors were held against the "heatsink" base plates by the potting resin.
Machine shops skimming engine heads and blocks use something called engineer's blue to find high spots. Might be worth figuring something similar out before tightening the new SSR down onto the sink.
Machine shops skimming engine heads and blocks use something called engineer's blue to find high spots. Might be worth figuring something similar out before tightening the new SSR down onto the sink.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Do the wires on the Crydom go to the same terminals as the Fotek?http://www.ebay.com/itm/122356475811?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The crydoms connections are labeled in the picture. The ones labeled 240V output are for the main 240v power wires (it doesnt matter with goes where since its a relay switch) and the input wires are for the DC control from the pid... the #3 with the + sign would be the positive (my assumption here) and the #4 would be the negative wire.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Ok Thanks. I didn't know the 240 side was interchangeable...good to know.
I could use some conformation on the #3 being positive.
If I don't get any feedback I try calling Crydom
3 is positive - that is why it is labeled with a + sign.
Crydom has an excellent technical library on their website. Here are two links:
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/installation-sheets/is_s1ac.pdf
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/tips/selecting a solid state relay.pdf
Crydom has an excellent technical library on their website. Here are two links:
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/installation-sheets/is_s1ac.pdf
http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/tips/selecting a solid state relay.pdf
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
My bad. I haven't received it yet and jumped the gun on not looking close enough to the picture. Thanks for pointing that out.
I thought you had it in front of you! Sorry for being a smart ass!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
That's why I stated the " #3 with the + sign is positive" I was just going by the pic of the one you bought.
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For the record, if you have to do this again, do it right. The way you joined those wires is not the right way. Those ring terminals put the flat part at the edge of the crimp. You should have flipped each of them so that they sat flat against each other and then the screw terminal would have clamped the whole thing down flat. The way they are in this picture leaves them with not a lot of contact surface area.
I think that was a spur of the moment temp fix.
That said, I am curious about which was in front, cart or horse. It seems very odd to me that the SSR burned up. This is rare as there isn't much inside which should induce that level of heat. The circuitry should either fail closed or open, and a solid state part should fail open if it is heated enough. I wonder if the heat came from the terminal and was dumped into the body of the SSR. Though, that said, once you took the SSR out of the circuit, if the terminal was at fault, it would have likely continued heating, so that line of thinking is likely moot.
Anyway, moral of the story... use a quality crimp and a quality SSR, installed in a quality manner, and these problems should be rare.
That said, I am curious about which was in front, cart or horse. It seems very odd to me that the SSR burned up. This is rare as there isn't much inside which should induce that level of heat. The circuitry should either fail closed or open, and a solid state part should fail open if it is heated enough. I wonder if the heat came from the terminal and was dumped into the body of the SSR. Though, that said, once you took the SSR out of the circuit, if the terminal was at fault, it would have likely continued heating, so that line of thinking is likely moot.
Anyway, moral of the story... use a quality crimp and a quality SSR, installed in a quality manner, and these problems should be rare.
This is a failure due to a bad connection. Hot wires are always either undersized wire or bad connections. Either a bad crimp, or lug not screwed tight enough on SSR, or lug poorly seated on SSR terminal. The heat was generated at the terminal where the wire is discolored and the SSR housing melted. If the failure was with the triac (the high current switching element) inside the SSR, the housing would be melted more near the center, not at the terminal. The melting of the terminal area on the SSR probably caused an internal connection in the SSR to break open (the distortion can pull on internal wires.)
For the record, one of my jobs involved frequent failure analysis of electronic components, so I'm pretty good at looking at the physical evidence and deducing root cause.
Brew on
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
It looked like a failure caused by a bad crimp to me also. (I'm a test engineer and a EE) Though, I suspect the only real reason I didn't have an issue so far (knock on wood) with what is probably a fake Fotek is that I use a "40A" version at about 18A, I have a full sized heatsink with proper compound on it and I have a "boxer" type fan blowing on it the whole time it's running. It's noisy in my brew area anyway.
Do any of you guys have any idea of a vendor who sells real Foteks for sure? (Don't tell me to Google it, it's a black hole.) I wonder if the ones sold at "Sparkfun" are real.. they have ones that look like they are built for them, but the datasheet on their site is Fotek's.
Do any of you guys have any idea of a vendor who sells real Foteks for sure? (Don't tell me to Google it, it's a black hole.) I wonder if the ones sold at "Sparkfun" are real.. they have ones that look like they are built for them, but the datasheet on their site is Fotek's.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the trouble shooting. With any luck the new SSR and thermal paste will be here tomorrow.
As far as crimping them I think I just went Hercules on the connectors with large channel locks. Any other ideas? Not exactly brain surgery but I'll take your suggestions...I'm sure they make a crimping tool that I don't have and would rather not buy for 2 wires but if it will save me headaches I would look into it.
So are the yellow ring connectors correct or is there a better way?
As far as crimping them I think I just went Hercules on the connectors with large channel locks. Any other ideas? Not exactly brain surgery but I'll take your suggestions...I'm sure they make a crimping tool that I don't have and would rather not buy for 2 wires but if it will save me headaches I would look into it.
So are the yellow ring connectors correct or is there a better way?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I believe they are pretty much all fake but a very small portion... The real ones should ship from Taiwan and not china so that the first indication somethings off. there is a website with pictures that show how to tell what from what but thats useless since the counterfeiters used it to make the fakes more like the real ones.. if its one of the generic white bodies ssrs it could have been made by one of at least a dozen generic clone makers in china.. you can find them selling these on alibaba for as little as 1/2 a cent each and companies like mypin, inkbird and ebrew supply sell or sold them as thier own at one point too...
most of the cheap good quality ones like auberins and ebrew now sell are made by mager like this one... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-SSR-4...867853?hash=item211b88c0cd:g:liEAAOSwcUBYPnpe or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-40A-S...244314?hash=item5b2516545a:g:MWoAAOSwo0JWJzxJ they come rebranded as all different names but with a similar blue or purple label. they are also sold as "Berme" brand too http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-480V-AC-...3f925d4&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=272520440744 and are possibly even the same as these..http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Phas...3f925d4&pid=100005&rk=5&rkt=6&sd=272520440744
Channel locks?!? Oh man, that explains it.
Buy, or borrow, a quality pair of crimpers. These ratchet and have a legit die to crimp both the electrical and insulation potions of the terminal. You can buy a pair on Amazon for ~$50. I think that's worthwhile insurance to make sure you don't have a [emoji91].
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
These are more than enough to do the job.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voilamart-C...508541?hash=item4b0f7eb1fd:g:uDcAAOSwImRYb2gF
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ratcheting-...344890?hash=item43fae86c3a:g:h9AAAOSwa~BYURKW
or if you have one nearby..
http://www.harborfreight.com/ratcheting-crimping-tool-97420.html
The ones I used where the really cheap crappy harbor freight style.. They work fine for me but they are not ideal
$1.97 specials... I have never had a connector burnup or give me an issue but I'll admit I squeeze the **** out of them.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-four-way-crimping-tool-92410.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voilamart-C...508541?hash=item4b0f7eb1fd:g:uDcAAOSwImRYb2gF
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ratcheting-...344890?hash=item43fae86c3a:g:h9AAAOSwa~BYURKW
or if you have one nearby..
http://www.harborfreight.com/ratcheting-crimping-tool-97420.html
The ones I used where the really cheap crappy harbor freight style.. They work fine for me but they are not ideal
$1.97 specials... I have never had a connector burnup or give me an issue but I'll admit I squeeze the **** out of them.
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-four-way-crimping-tool-92410.html
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I'm lucky enough to have a HF 5 minutes from my house...I'm going to pick up a pair of those $14 pliers... The last link of the wire strippers I have and probably used to crimp down and then used the channel locks to finish it off....
Get some other cool tools you don't need while there, like a tire changer... or a cement hole saw!
Seriously though... AD's my boy, but don't get those cheap azz crimper!!
Seriously though... AD's my boy, but don't get those cheap azz crimper!!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I used them because I had multiple pair my father had bought... If I had to do it again I'd get the ratching $14 ones... I have a $300 set in my company cars trunk but I was too lazy to get them as sad as that sounds plus I would forget to put them back in my trunk and be up ****s creek when I needed them for a field repair at work.
In my eyes, the design of the $14 ones is more than adequate to do the job right regardless of name brand..especially for use a handful of times. We are talking about crimping a couple connectors here not making a career of using the tool. A little common sense it required here... Still, I know points of view change a bit with ones financial situation. I find myself buying things I would never have considered wasting money on 10 years ago when I had much less.
In my eyes, the design of the $14 ones is more than adequate to do the job right regardless of name brand..especially for use a handful of times. We are talking about crimping a couple connectors here not making a career of using the tool. A little common sense it required here... Still, I know points of view change a bit with ones financial situation. I find myself buying things I would never have considered wasting money on 10 years ago when I had much less.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I think the SSVR I'm using in series currently for boil control (also on a big heatsink with proper compound and a fan) is a "Mager" and it's been okay so far too. Maybe I'll order one of those and try it. Eventually I'm going to do at least one more vessel in the setup... Thanks.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Looking at Ebay again for no good reason. I bought 2 more new Crydom's for $13 shipped. Looking at what other people are charging on Ebay it seemed like a homerun. Now I have 3 brand new Crydom SSR's. Hopefully with the spares I'm good forever
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crydom-Solid-State-Relay-D2440-New-Input-3-32V-Output-240V-40A-/152465545286
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crydom-Solid-State-Relay-D2440-New-Input-3-32V-Output-240V-40A-/152465545286
Caveat is if you got them super cheap, they might be cheap (aka fake)?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Thats a good point...(crydoms normally come in a small box not in a plastic bag that I recall) I bought a cheap dual ssr that states it replaced a crydom model xx and its working well so far in my new control box...
A couple years ago there used to be someone on ebay who was selling Teledyne dual ssrs that normally sold for $300 for $20 each...He had a huge plastic tote full. I bought one as did many members here at the time and I have had no problems...(wish I bought more) My guess is they are sometimes factory seconds or old replacement stock that companies had on had for machinery they've since gotten rid of... hell someone at the factory could be dumpster diving or stealing them as well..
In any case I bet they are much better quality than the 10a fake foteks..
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