Help refine my batch sparge

[Denny]

It brings up the question of why is fly sparging more eff?

It's not necessarily more efficient. I get better efficiency batch sparging than many people get fly sparging.

 

[Denny]

I have almost the same method as you and I have found a definite gain to the second batch sparge. So even though I respect Denny, based on my personal experience it helps. But we'll see when my BC comes, with a better grind the couple of points might not be enough to continue measuring out 2 batches of hot water...

You should always trust your own experience over what I, or anyone, tells you. But I'm curious to know how much difference the second sparge makes for you and what kind of efficiency you get.

 

[magnj]

You should always trust your own experience over what I, or anyone, tells you. But I'm curious to know how much difference the second sparge makes for you and what kind of efficiency you get.

On mail-order crush I'm getting 67%, the second sparge seems to have given me a 2-3% boost. Not major but big enough for me that it's worth the extra 10 minutes. I'm hoping that when my Barley Crusher gets here I'll be over 70%...not sure if at that point I'll do a second sparge or not.

I know there is some rule about the gravity, I think it 1.012 and over and it's safe to use...otherwise you risk extracting tanins?

 

[Q2XL]

I'm hoping that when my Barley Crusher gets here I'll be over 70%...not sure if at that point I'll do a second sparge or not.

I am sure you will get great efficiency with your Crusher. Take a look at this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/my-efficiency-my-last-22-brews-150916/

 

[Denny]

I know there is some rule about the gravity, I think it 1.012 and over and it's safe to use...otherwise you risk extracting tanins?

It's pH that matters, not gravity. The gravity is just a way of roughly gauging what the pH might be. In batch sparging, I've never come close to the pH "limit".

In my brewing world, 2-3% qualifies as "not worth the effort". YMMV.

 

[duffman2]

You should always trust your own experience over what I, or anyone, tells you. But I'm curious to know how much difference the second sparge makes for you and what kind of efficiency you get.

I'm about to do my first AG by Batch Sparge so this has been great info. Thanks!

 

[Netflyer]

My average efficiency is about 85% with one batch sparge. Last weekend, I ended up at 93%! I've found so little gain from doing 2 sparges that I've decided it isn't worth my time and effort to do it that way.

What was the grainbill for the 93%? Weight and OG, just curious? How could fly sparging be less efficient? Don't you think commercial breweries would choose the most effecient method? Don't they rain hot water on their grainbeds?

 

[Denny]

17 lb. of Best pils malt....nothing else.

Commercial breweries fly sparge for a few reasons that don't concern homebrewers, really. First, the scale of equipment they'd have to have to batch sparge would be enormous. Second, the larger the batch size, the less gain there is from batch sparging in terms of time and ease. and third, commercial breweries need to eke out every last cent of profit. For us, it's a hobby, not an economic system. We should revel in the freedom we have to do things they can't do. In theory, on a home brew scale, a perfect fly sparge system will be more efficient than batch sparging. But I don't think there are any (or many) perfect fly sparge systems.

 

[Netflyer]

So you used German Pilsner Malt, 17# and what final gallons, 10? That would mean you got 1.059 at 93% ... that is amazing, what I can't figure out is why we wouldn't get better eff. from 2 batch sparges?

Basically I'm getting 70-73% with emptying the first wort, and doing 2 sparge/stir/vorlauf till clears...

You are saying if I do only one, using more water of course that I will get up to 20% more eff?! That's amazing and I guess I have to try it. I would think if anything doing it 2x I would get more eff. than 1x.. but like I said, I will give it a whirl man.

 

[magnj]

I doubt he is claiming 1 sparge will improve your efficiency rather than 2, just that 2 may be unnecessary. I can almost certainly say that just combining your two sparges into one big sparge will not give you a 20% boost.

 

[Netflyer]

I'm reasonably sure it won't either... but I'm trying to be positive and scientific like about it

 

[david_42]

Unlike Denny, I've found that two sparges adds 5-7% to my efficiency. Typically, I get 50% of the sugar in the first runnings, 33% in the second and 17% in the third. I also find using two sparges makes it easier to get exactly the pre-boil volume I want.

I'd look at your crush to increase efficiency.

 

[Denny]

So you used German Pilsner Malt, 17# and what final gallons, 10? That would mean you got 1.059 at 93% ... that is amazing, what I can't figure out is why we wouldn't get better eff. from 2 batch sparges?

Basically I'm getting 70-73% with emptying the first wort, and doing 2 sparge/stir/vorlauf till clears...

You are saying if I do only one, using more water of course that I will get up to 20% more eff?! That's amazing and I guess I have to try it. I would think if anything doing it 2x I would get more eff. than 1x.. but like I said, I will give it a whirl man.

9 gal. final volume. I don't have all the numbers in front of me, but I posted runoff volumes and gravities on the AHA forum so Kai could look at them.

 

[Netflyer]

...
I'd look at your crush to increase efficiency.

Getting a Barley Crusher for my B-day... been reading up on crushing fresh there is no question you are right.

Also I'm imagining the enzyme activity would be highest on just milled grain being that they haven't been (the crushed hulls) exposed to O2 for as long as pre-crushed...

 

[RichBenn]

I'm reasonably sure it won't either... but I'm trying to be positive and scientific like about it

If you look about halfway down the first page here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/reiterated-mashing-notes-51706/
Kaiser's got some great, scientific graphs there.

Too often people think of science as just theories dervied from statistical or experimental data. But first principles are heavily used. Math, physics and chemistry are enough(IMHO) to prove that multiple sparges will yield more than a single sparge, all other things being equal(which is not always the case).

Rich

 

[Netflyer]

Read it, thanks RichBenn! Great thread and there ya go, Kaiser (who rocks btw) already did the experiment and his conclusions reiterate what common sense tells us, more sparges, more eff (of course to a point, we don't want 1.010 run off now do we?)

 

[RichBenn]

Kaiser (who rocks btw)....QUOTE]

And if you're reading this, Kaiser, I think you rock, too!:rockin:

Rich

 

[Denny]

Math, physics and chemistry are enough(IMHO) to prove that multiple sparges will yield more than a single sparge, all other things being equal(which is not always the case).

Rich

Not experience?

Multiple sparges likely will yield higher efficiency, although I know of at least one case where a guy went from multiple to single sparge and got higher efficiency. I won't speculate on what happened there. To me, though, the question becomes "is it worth it?". For me, there's a point of diminishing returns where getting 2-3 points more efficiency isn't worth the effort, no matter how minimal that effort may be.