Help Quick-Water is PH 7

[Gabe]

I am doing a brew and tested my water b4 I started and it's dead on at 7. Do I need to change this if I am brewing an IPA? Will my grain's change my PH for the better? Help quick. Cheers

 

[Orfy]

It will.

No real need to check PH unless you are going for super efficiency or you are having problems.

Test the mash once it's on but don't worry about it. I've never tested a batch, get great results and don't see a need to be concerned about it.

 

[DAAB]

Will my grain's change my PH for the better?

Yes, particulary some of the darker grains. As Orfy suggests, the time PH really matters in is the mash (although there are good reasons to lower your sparge water).

The right PH will effect efficiency and clarity but you can still make great beer without adjusting it. I'd wait till you are really bored and have nothing better to do before you start making adjustments.

 

[Catfish]

You don't need to be concerned with the water pH. THe pH of your Mash is what makes the difference. As already mentioned, you can (with most of the drinking water in the world) make good beer without ever reading your mash pH. But you will notice house flavors, and some styles will not work as well as others. Proper mash pH is as important as mash temp in controling the beer you are making... unfortunately mash pH and residual alkalinity is a pain in the ass.

 

[EdWort]

How do you adjust the PH of your mash?

 

[texasgeorge]

unfortunately mash pH and residual alkalinity is a pain in the ass.

No F-ing kidding. If I don't treat my water, my paler ales taste too bitter... not astringent per se, but not right either. I dunno...

How do you adjust the PH of your mash?

I use lactic acid to lower my residual alkalinity (caused by entirely too much CO3 in my water). I add about 9mL 88% Lactic Acid to 4 gallons to bring it down.

You can use other acids as well, like Hydrochloric, Phosphoric, or Sulfuric, but they will all add other chemicals to your water (Chlorine, Phosphorus, Sulfur) that you may not want. Lactic is the more "neutral" choice.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I was readin up on AG and found this a couple of days ago.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

It says to add gypsum... How much? You have to read up on it to know.

Hope this helps. - There's a downloadable spreadsheet at the bottom.

 

[Brewpilot]

I use a water buffer... 5.2 it is called, to lower the PH for "super efficiency"

Brewpilot

 

[DAAB]

Duplicate..oppps

 

[Lil' Sparky]

No F-ing kidding. If I don't treat my water, my paler ales taste too bitter... not astringent per se, but not right either. I dunno...



I use lactic acid to lower my residual alkalinity (caused by entirely too much CO3 in my water). I add about 9mL 88% Lactic Acid to 4 gallons to bring it down.

You can use other acids as well, like Hydrochloric, Phosphoric, or Sulfuric, but they will all add other chemicals to your water (Chlorine, Phosphorus, Sulfur) that you may not want. Lactic is the more "neutral" choice.

texasgeorge - where in TX are you located? I don't have any idea what our water here in College Station is like. We just moved here and none of the beers I've brewed here are ready to drink yet.

 

[texasgeorge]

I actually live in College Station too :fro: ... but my wife and I just bought a house in Bryan that we'll be moving in to at the end of Feb. You can go to the city's website, poke around in the utilities pages and come up with the most recent water report.

Basically, everything's pretty much cool except we're looking at ~215ppm CO3 and pH somewhere in the 7.8 range IIRC. To make a beer with an SRM in the 8-15 range, it's in the ballpark of 8-9mL per 4 gallons of water (that's my typical strike volume so that's how I know the measurement).

 

[Lil' Sparky]

That's cool. Any other guys you know that brew around here? We'll have to get together and swap brews sometime.

I'm kind of new to the water analysis/treatment thing. If I used the 5.2 pH stabilizer, would I still need to use lactic acid?

 

[texasgeorge]

I don't. Absent a LHBS in town, I just don't see how many people would get into it. I have a guy from work coming to the new house sometime in March probably... he's intrigued by the whole thing. We should definitely get together and swap!

As far as 5.2... no, you won't need lactic acid. It's just cheaper than 5.2 ($4 instead of $12 or whatever) so I figured I'd learn how to save a few bucks making my water usable.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Yeah, it's too bad there's no LHBS here. In Colorado Springs we had 3 different places, and the population there is less than the Bryan/College Station area. Go figure.

I'll probably try stick with the 5.2 then. It may cost more, but I sense less potential for screwing things up that way. ;-) The 5.2 solution seems fairly risk-free.

PM me when you want to get together.

Cheers,
Clint

 

[Lil' Sparky]

No F-ing kidding. If I don't treat my water, my paler ales taste too bitter... not astringent per se, but not right either. I dunno...



I use lactic acid to lower my residual alkalinity (caused by entirely too much CO3 in my water). I add about 9mL 88% Lactic Acid to 4 gallons to bring it down.

You can use other acids as well, like Hydrochloric, Phosphoric, or Sulfuric, but they will all add other chemicals to your water (Chlorine, Phosphorus, Sulfur) that you may not want. Lactic is the more "neutral" choice.

texasgeorge - I've had an amber I brewed on tap for a few weeks, and I've got the same thing, a strangely bitter flavor. The nut brown's better, but still a little more bitter than I was shooting for. I haven't had this before we moved here. I'm definately going to adjust the water for my next brew.

Where do you get your lactic acid from? I'll be getting my ingredients from AHS, so I guess I can get it there. My dad will be in next weekend and we're going to do a 10 gal batch. It'll be my first experience with the new brew stand. If you're free, you ought to come over and shoot the bull and have a homebrew with us.

Cheers.

 

[thebull]

Just ad one tbls of PH 5.2 to the mash. All will work well. Any online brew supplier has the product.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

After a little research, it seems like we have fairly extreme water, and I'm not sure that the pH 5.2 solution will work as well as adding some acid. We have very soft water that's also very high in bicarbonate.

Here's the important parts of our water report:
bicarbonate: 459 ppm
calcium: 2.96 ppm
chloride: 54 ppm
magnesium: .65 ppm
sodium: 200 ppm
sulfate: 9 ppm
pH: 7.8
hardness as CaCO3: 8.14 ppm

If you do the calculations (Palmer's nomograph, Palmer's spreadsheet), our residual alkalinity is 373 (off the chart of the nomograph). It's out of the range for even the darkest beers.

I listened to this where John Palmer talks about water, pH, alkalinity, etc. At the end he addresses pH 5.2. He says that for water across most of the country, it'll work fine, but it probably wouldn't work as well in extreme cases.

I'm sure it would help, and it's definately the easy solution, but I wish I knew if it would work well enough.

 

[Kaiser]

bicarbonate: 459 ppm
calcium: 2.96 ppm
magnesium: .65 ppm

Yes, that's pretty damn alkaline water indeed. Here is what you can do:

- dillute with R/O or distilled water and use gypsum or calcium cloride (calcium salts) in the mash.
- use a combination of calcuim salts to lower the residual alkalinity somewhat and then use an acid (lactic acid, phosphoric acid or acid malt) to get you the rest of the way.

If you can afford it, look into getting an R/O system (should be about $300-$400) this will give you nice low mineral drinking water as well as great brew water. You will then need salts to build your water from scratch.

Kai

 

[texasgeorge]

After a little research, it seems like we have fairly extreme water, and I'm not sure that the pH 5.2 solution will work as well as adding some acid. We have very soft corrected: it's actually very hard water that's also very high in bicarbonate.

Here's the important parts of our water report:
bicarbonate: 459 ppm
calcium: 2.96 ppm
chloride: 54 ppm
magnesium: .65 ppm
sodium: 200 ppm
sulfate: 9 ppm
pH: 7.8
hardness as CaCO3: 8.14 ppm

If you do the calculations (Palmer's nomograph, Palmer's spreadsheet), our residual alkalinity is 373 (off the chart of the nomograph). It's out of the range for even the darkest beers.

I listened to this where John Palmer talks about water, pH, alkalinity, etc. At the end he addresses pH 5.2. He says that for water across most of the country, it'll work fine, but it probably wouldn't work as well in extreme cases.

I'm sure it would help, and it's definately the easy solution, but I wish I knew if it would work well enough.

FWIW I use 9 mL Lactic Acid per 4 gallons of water in both the strike water and the sparge water for your 6-12 SRM brews and it seems to be okay. Kaiser is right... we should be diluting with purified water about 50% of the liquor... but I get acceptable results with what I've been doing so I won't change.

I'll bet if you treated with Lactic acid and then added a little 5.2, it might be even better.

And as far as the invite... I don't know which weekend you're referring to, but I work this weekend and SWMBO's birthday is the next one, and we close on our new house on the 26th, SO this next few weeks are going to be hectic and likely a no-go for brewing. If you'd like to sample a couple of pales I've made with lactic-acid treated H2O, send me a PM and I'll drop you a bottle or six.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Thanks for the info. If I dilute the water with 1/2 distilled or r/o water, I assume all the ppm numbers effectively drop by 1/2 as well, right?

Kaiser, you mentioned using salts and acid. Any specific reason why?

I'll bet if you treated with Lactic acid and then added a little 5.2, it might be even better.

Now that's an idea. Lower the alkalinity with some acid and then let the 5.2 get it just right. I like it!

 

[delboy]

I think the pH 5.2 product might well do the trick. Essentially its a buffer which means its good at holding that pH. The buffers i make up in work are incredibly good at holding and maintaining a pH (you have to get the 6M NaOH and HCl out to shift them significantly. On the basis of this im adding only 1 teaspoon (skinflint) to my brewing water because i figure it'll be plenty strong even at a 1/3 dilution.
If you want i could bring some into the lab and check out its buffering capacity to see if it can actually handle those sort of ranges that you are encountering with your water.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

If you've got the extra time, sure! It would be great to know if it would hold the pH by itself.

 

[clayof2day]

I think Kai's suggestion is the ticket. Remember, thigs like chloride, sulfate, any of the salts you would add not only make chemical changes, but also flavor changes in the water. Having the correct mineral balance will be crucial to the flavor profile in your beer. Also, in a side-by-side-by-side the taste of phosphoric acid was preferred over lactic acid and 5.2 (done by the The Brewing Network). I use 5.2 and for my water it works and the flavor profile is not an issue for me. For you, I think that your water is too extreme for the 5.2 to work and depending on the style I think you would need some of the mineral additions along with the acid to get you where you want to be. We'll see if Kai chimes back in...he's more knowledgable than me about, pretty much everything related to brewing I think

 

[Kaiser]

Kaiser, you mentioned using salts and acid. Any specific reason why?

clayof2day is correct, when using salts you have to keep in mind that you add ions that may affect the taste of the beer. Since your water is so far off the chart you would have to add way to much Calcuim and Magnesium to get to a decent residual alkalinity for brewing. This will have a negative affect. That's why you should use salts and acids to treat your water.

I would have to check in Palmer's book which levels of Ca and Mg are acceptable. Good thing you are brewing an IPA. Such hoppy beers seems to benefit from harder water. If you were to brew anything lighter I'd tell you to get R/O water from the store. Some sell that water for $25 a galon (at least this was the case 4 years ago).

Kai

 

[Rhoobarb]

I wish I had a water pH of 7.0! I'm on well water and the pH is off the charts - so high that I can't properly measure it with strips! For beers that need adjustment of my mash pH, I use the 5.2 pH stabilizer and it works flawlessly.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

FYI - I'm not the one who started the thread. I like brewing different kinds of beer, which is why I'm really trying to understand everything here.

What I really meant to ask was: is there anything wrong with just adjusting with acid? How would adding something like gypsum (or other salts) along with the acid help?

In the interview with Palmer, he also said he thought Phosphoric acid was ideal. Unfortunately in his spreadsheet, those boxes are grayed out, so I wouldn't know how to calculate how much to use.

I think I like texasgeorge's idea of lowering the alkalinity with some acid and also using the 5.2 to make sure it's just right. Do you water experts see anthing bad about trying that?

By the way, Kai, I'm not paying $25/gallon for water, unless is bottled right out of the fountain of youth!

 

[Kaiser]

By the way, Kai, I'm not paying $25/gallon for water, unless is bottled right out of the fountain of youth!

Sorry, I meant $0.25. Yeah, $25 for the galon would be rather outragous.

Kai

 

[Kaiser]

I wish I had a water pH of 7.0! I'm on well water and the pH is off the charts - so high that I can't properly measure it with strips! For beers that need adjustment of my mash pH, I use the 5.2 pH stabilizer and it works flawlessly.

BTW, the pH of the water doesn't tell you much. It only gives an indication of the current H+/OH- distribution in the water. What important for brewing is the buffering capacity of the water. This is expressed as alkalinity and is a measure of how hard it is to change the pH of the water. So you can have water with a fairly high pH but a low alkalinity and it will be fine for brewing even very pale beers b/c the malt will be strong enough to pull the pH down. As a matter of fact a lot of municipal water supplies usually have a pH above 7 to prevent the water from corroding metal pipes. This adjustment doesn't really change the alkalinity though.

Kai

 

[Rhoobarb]

BTW, the pH of the water doesn't tell you much. It only gives an indication of the current H+/OH- distribution in the water. What important for brewing is the buffering capacity of the water. This is expressed as alkalinity and is a measure of how hard it is to change the pH of the water. So you can have water with a fairly high pH but a low alkalinity and it will be fine for brewing even very pale beers b/c the malt will be strong enough to pull the pH down. As a matter of fact a lot of municipal water supplies usually have a pH above 7 to prevent the water from corroding metal pipes. This adjustment doesn't really change the alkalinity though.

Kai

Good point! Yeah, our water is extremely hard and is alkaline, too. It works great for Burton beers as is!