Help on Saison recipe

[davidlo]

Hello,

I am planning to brew my first Saison, so I would like to hear some opinions.

- All Grain
- 50 L (13,2gal) on fermenter

Grains:
Carawheat (Weyermann) - 2kg (4,4lb) - 16%
Pilsner (Weyermann) - 7,5kg (16,5lb) - 60%
Vienna Malt (Weyermann) - 2kg (4,4lb) - 16%
Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) - 1kg (2,2lb) 8%

Hops:

Goldings, East Kent [5%] - 50g (1,75oz) @60min
Fuggles [4,5%] - 100g (3,5oz) @5min
Saaz[4%] - 100g (3,5oz) @20min

Spice:
Coriander Seed - 60g (2,11oz) 5 min boil
Orange peel - 90 g (3,17oz) 5 min boil

Yeats: 3 packs of Lallemand´s Belle Saison (dry)

Mash: 60 min - 64 C (147 F)
Mashout: 10 min - 75 C (167 F)

Boil for 60 min

Fermentation: 4 days at 18 C (64 F) than more three days increasing 1 C every day.
Conditioning: 15 days at 2 C (35,6 F) in same batch

Bottle with table sugar 4,8g/l and let it rest for 10 days.

 

[davidlo]

Forgot the more info:

Expected Original Gravity: 1,058 SG
Expected Final Gravity: 1,010 SG

Bitterness: 25,5IBU
Color: 21,1 EBC
ABV: 6,4%

 

[1977Brewer]

It's going to be way under 1.010 FG. Belle saison eats everything in its path.

Other than that my mouth is watering

 

[IslandLizard]

13 gallons is very brave for a first time Saison! Why not brew 3 different ones with different spices and late addition hops? Just mash, lauter, and boil the whole lot, then drain off 2/3 for different end treatment. Finish the 1/3 left, chill and rack to fermentor. Then fill with 1/2 of what was drained before, finish, and repeat.

60 grams of Coriander is aggressive, but will work well with the orange zest, which is also a lot.

 

[davidlo]

It's going to be way under 1.010 FG. Belle saison eats everything in its path.

Other than that my mouth is watering

Would you advice reducing malts to get same ABV?
How low do you think FG will get?

 

[secondbase]

That is a lot of coriander. You could easily cut that in half and still have a very prominent coriander taste. Belle saison is pretty spicy as is so you might want to go even lower.

Also, I would move the spice additions at flameout to avoid over extraction.

 

[IslandLizard]

That is a lot of coriander. You could easily cut that in half and still have a very prominent coriander taste. Belle saison is pretty spicy as is so you might want to go even lower.

Also, I would move the spice additions at flameout to avoid over extraction.

I've used 15 grams of Coriander in 5 gallon Wit Biers and it's prominent. I like 7.5 grams better. But Saisons are not supposed to be that subtle.

 

[1977Brewer]

Would you advice reducing malts to get same ABV?

How low do you think FG will get?

I've gotten 1.001, mashed at 152, and 1.005 mashing at 155. If anything, up your mash temp and try to get more unfermentables in there. I do let my Saisons run free though, so the 85 degree peak temp might have something to do with it.

You've got a solid grain bill, and the hood are right in line for the style.

 

[davidlo]

13 gallons is very brave for a first time Saison! Why not brew 3 different ones with different spices and late addition hops? Just mash, lauter, and boil the whole lot, then drain off 2/3 for different end treatment. Finish the 1/3 left, chill and rack to fermentor. Then fill with 1/2 of what was drained before, finish, and repeat.

60 grams of Coriander is aggressive, but will work well with the orange zest, which is also a lot.

We brew in a group of 5, so we allways use the whole capacity of our equipament.

Since we got two fermenters (30 l), it might be a good idea to make two diferent end treatment.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Fermentation: 4 days at 18 C (64 F) than more three days increasing 1 C every day.
Conditioning: 15 days at 2 C (35,6 F) in same batch

Just caught my eye...

That's too cold for this yeast. Saison yeasts shine with higher temps all the way up to 90°F! That's not to say it can't be done or won't taste good at lower temps, but you'll be suppressing lots of the typical Saison characteristics. And why lagering?

I've fermented my Grapefruit Saison with ECY08 (Saison Brasserie) at 65°F on purpose, then raised to high 70s to finish out. Gave me lots of pineapple, and a little funk. Keg kicked in 2 days.

 

[davidlo]

That is a lot of coriander. You could easily cut that in half and still have a very prominent coriander taste. Belle saison is pretty spicy as is so you might want to go even lower.

Also, I would move the spice additions at flameout to avoid over extraction.

I will reduce coriander to 40gf and add it on flame out

 

[wallybangbang]

Just my 2 cents- brew one without any spice additions. Coriander, orange peel, pepper etc.... It lets you get a feel for the flavors that saison yeasts bring to the table. Then you can work in any spice additions to fit your tastes. I personally love the spiciness the yeast brings to the party by itself. You could even split batches like someone else suggested and ferment and different temps, maybe do one around 70F and get one hotter up into the 80's. That would let you see the flavor difference in fermenting in the hotter vs cooler range of the yeast. Your recipe does look solid though and will produce a great beer. + 1 to what someone else said about your FG though, it will be lower than .010.

 

[davidlo]

Just caught my eye...

That's too cold for this yeast. Saison yeasts shine with higher temps all the way up to 90°F! That's not to say it can't be done or won't taste good at lower temps, but you'll be suppressing lots of the typical Saison characteristics. And why lagering?

I've fermented my Grapefruit Saison with ECY08 (Saison Brasserie) at 65°F on purpose, then raised to high 70s to finish out. Gave me lots of pineapple, and a little funk. Keg kicked in 2 days.

So maybe starting at 70F and going up till 76F would be ideal?


Another issue: the specs sheet says I should use 1g/l of the dry yeast. That´s quite a lot. I would have to buy 4,5 packs (11g each). Do you guys think it´s really necessary? I was thinking about usuing 3 packs.

 

[IslandLizard]

So maybe starting at 70F and going up till 76F would be ideal?

Another issue: the specs sheet says I should use 1g/l of the dry yeast. That´s quite a lot. I would have to buy 4,5 packs (11g each). Do you guys think it´s really necessary? I was thinking about usuing 3 packs.

I don't know why the yeast specs are now saying to pitch at 62F and at 100gr/hl. I don't remember seeing that before. Saison yeasts need it warm.

I fermented 5 gallons with 1 rehydrated sachet in the middle of summer. It must have been at least 75 degrees and the beer turned out beautiful. I got a little banana flavor about half way through, but none was left by the time it was done, about 10 days total. I'd say 3 packets between the 2 fermentors is plenty. Make sure to re-hydrate the yeast before pitching and have the temp of the yeast within 10F from the wort.

70 degrees is a good start, just let it rise by itself it will get to 75F. Keep it warm. You can pack a heating pad and a sleeping bag around the fermentor to keep the temps up. That's what I did. After a week it was at 80-85F and still bubbling once every few minutes. I think it went down to 1.008, and there was no simple sugar in the fermentables.

 

[Sailingeric]

I have made a few yummy saisons. I go with no spices and I run high 70's temp the whole time, I use Wlp565. Comes out nice and spicy.

 

[TheBigLebrewsk1]

I do Belle Saison at room temp, 69 degrees + whatever temp increase from the fermentation. It produces well enough esters for my taste. I use a low mash temp and I add a simple sugar source after 4-5 days to dry it out.

 

[rhys333]

I haven't used CaraWheat but its essentially a medium crystal malt isn't it? I typically avoid any crystal in my saisons and I'm just wondering if 16% is going to be too much...

 

[IslandLizard]

I haven't used CaraWheat but its essentially a medium crystal malt isn't it? I typically avoid any crystal in my saisons and I'm just wondering if 16% is going to be too much...

Agreed, that's way too much! I do use some Honey Malt in my Saisons, and sometimes Caravienne. Never more than 2% though.

 

[rhys333]

Agreed, that's way too much! I do use some Honey Malt in my Saisons, and sometimes Caravienne. Never more than 2% though.

Agree, that 2% adds just a little something without taking over. It might be heresy, but 4-6% Victory for little biscuity warmth could be a nice alternative too.

 

[m00ps]

I haven't used CaraWheat but its essentially a medium crystal malt isn't it? I typically avoid any crystal in my saisons and I'm just wondering if 16% is going to be too much...

Im glad someone finally touched this or I was gonna lose it. Take all of that out

 

[IslandLizard]

Im glad someone finally touched this or I was gonna lose it. Take all of that out

Sorry about putting you in such distress. I was going to mention it, but there were a few other issues that deflected the attention and then forgot about it.

Now a kitchen sink Saison doesn't necessarily make a bad beer and is maybe historically more correct. So is an open vessel.

 

[m00ps]

Sorry about putting you in such distress. I was going to mention it, but there were a few other issues that deflected the attention and then forgot about it.

Now a kitchen sink Saison doesn't necessarily make a bad beer and is maybe historically more correct. So is an open vessel.

I expect more considerate behavior next time. Especially from a reptile brethren

 

[davidlo]

I haven't used CaraWheat but its essentially a medium crystal malt isn't it? I typically avoid any crystal in my saisons and I'm just wondering if 16% is going to be too much...

Here´s the discription on Beer Smith for Carawheat:
"Used in wheat beers and ales. A wheat version of crystal malt. Promotes fuller flavor, wheat malt aroma and enhanced color."

So it´s what you thought.

I saw many Saison recipes with some level of caramel.

I would to try some, but 16% might to much. I will reduce to 4%.
In that case, I will have to increase some of the base malts.
Which should I increase, viena or wheat?

 

[rhys333]

Here´s the discription on Beer Smith for Carawheat:
"Used in wheat beers and ales. A wheat version of crystal malt. Promotes fuller flavor, wheat malt aroma and enhanced color."

So it´s what you thought.

I saw many Saison recipes with some level of caramel.

I would to try some, but 16% might to much. I will reduce to 4%.
In that case, I will have to increase some of the base malts.
Which should I increase, viena or wheat?

Good thing about saison is there's a lot of freedom in terms of grain bill. You can play with the proportions to your liking, but maybe stay with 60% pils and whatever small portion of Carawheat you want, then split the difference equally between vienna and wheat?

 

[davidlo]

Thank you for all good advices.

I think I will close my recipe this way:

- All Grain
- 50 L (13,2gal) on fermenter

Grains:
Carawheat (Weyermann) - 0,5kg (1,1lb) - 4%
Pilsner (Weyermann) - 7,5kg (16,5lb) - 60%
Vienna Malt (Weyermann) - 3kg (6,6lb) - 24%
Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) - 1,5kg (3,3lb) 12%

Hops:

Fuggles [4,5%] - 50g (1,75oz) @60min (changed to Fuggles, since my supplier is out of goldings)
Fuggles [4,5%] - 100g (3,5oz) @5min
Saaz[4%] - 100g (3,5oz) @20min

Spice:
No Spice!

Yeast: 3 packs of Lallemand´s Belle Saison (dry)

Mash: 60 min - 64 C (147 F)
Mashout: 10 min - 75 C (167 F)

Boil for 60 min

Fermentation: 4 days at 21 C (70F) than more 8 days increasing 1 C every two days till 25 C (77 F).
Conditioning: 15 days at 2 C (35,6 F) in same batch

Bottle with table sugar 4,8g/l and let it rest for 10 days.