Help Me With Water Chemistry

[VikeMan]

Pure speculation, and definitely not to discourage further testing, but the fact that this is well water makes me wonder if the apparent ion imbalance might be due to unreported/untested iron.

 

[jrsdws]

Is that 80% or 88% lactic acid and no-sparge? If yes, it's a good bet that your water indeed has 300+mg/L bicarbonate.

It does add quite a lot of lactate. Are you sure it's not the excessive lactate that's muting the flavors? Admittedly, I've never used that much lactic acid, because I've just believed the literature on the flavor threshold, e.g.: https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment

Do try measuring the kettle pH too. That's the number that gives an indication of the beer flavor. The mash pH is important only for the mashing process ... which admittedly influences the beer flavor quite a bit too. Usually my kettle pH is 5.6-5.8 at the beginning of the boil, and for most ales I try to drop it to around 5.2 for the final 10min. The higher pH in the beginning gives better hop utilization (and if too high, browning), and the lower pH at the end helps with protein coagulation. You can literally see the effect of the pH drop in the boiling wort when floaty-whispy bits appear. The acid itself of course influences the beer flavor. If you are sparging and do not sufficiently acidify alkaline sparge water, your kettle pH will be completely out of wonk.

88% lactid acid no sparge.
I'm not sure if it's muting the hop flavors.....hence my post for adivce. LOL
I have not checked pH after hitting my mash pH goal but I will certainly try it!

Pure speculation, and definitely not to discourage further testing, but the fact that this is well water makes me wonder if the apparent ion imbalance might be due to unreported/untested iron.

It is well known that the ground water in our area contains a fair amount of iron....especially in the deeper aquifer.

 

[whattabrau]

88% lactid acid no sparge.
I'm not sure if it's muting the hop flavors.....hence my post for adivce. LOL
I have not checked pH after hitting my mash pH goal but I will certainly try it!

Ok the numbers seem correct enough so that I'd circle back to my original post: treat the water by boiling and decanting, adjust the water profile to 20Ca/100HCO3 (yes that's *a guess*, actually maybe go with at least 120HCO3), add lactic acid appropriately, check the kettle pH, and try to push it down if it's high. I'd try to use another acid besides lactic for the kettle pH. Phosphoric acid is pretty universally usable. Some beer styles might benefit from the crisper-tasting citric acid, which -- surprise -- tastes like citrus, as you can determine yourself by dissolving a fair bit in water and dipping your finger in it and then on your tongue. If I use citric acid, I usually go with about 2-4g at 10min in the boil.

If you want to "scientific" about it, do the above as a total of three experiments: one each and then both. Or just do both and if it's good enough, then it's good enough.

Going further, you probably have to figure out some convenient way to reduce the alkalinity. I boiled my water for pale beers for years, but this year I got tired of it and started using hydrochloric acid, but I can do it easily, because my water has almost no chloride. Your best bet might be to dilute with RO, if you have easy access to RO. Here, I'd wait for the Ward Labs numbers first.

Good luck!

 

[jrsdws]

I'll be brewing Sunday and I don't mind running a batch with distilled or RO. We're going to town tomorrow. This is a small 3gal batch anyway.
I will send my water out first of next week and see what I'm really working with.
I think I have hydrochloric acid....and I think I have granular citric acid. I'll check on both.
Maybe brewing a batch from a blank palate and building my water chemistry from that will provide good information.

 

[jrsdws]

Ok...so if I brew with distilled, here are what my additions look like according to BeerSmith:

4.50gal distilled
0.68g chalk
1.69g baking soda
2.74g gypsum
3.21g calcium chloride
4.20g epsom salt

That leaves me with the following from Palmers calculator:

Final Calcium = 111ppm
Final Magnesium = 24ppm
Final TA = 113ppm
Final Sulfate = 187ppm
Final Chloride = 91ppm
Final Sodium = 27ppm
Final Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3 = 19ppm

Final sulfate to chloride ratio = 2:1
Estimated SRM range 5-11

What say you smarter guys than me? Do it?

 

[VikeMan]

It usually doesn't make sense to add Chalk and/or Baking Soda unless you need to increase alkalinity. Based on the SRM, I'm assuming this isn't for a stout or anything with a lot of caramel/roasted grains. So chalk/baking soda are probably not needed/useful.

Slide 9 of this presentation shows one approach to building from distilled water.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

0.68g chalk
1.69g baking soda

What style are you brewing? My biggest issue with the auto generation tools is they end up throwing in a complex array of salts to hit meaningless values in the selected water profile. I don't think BeerSmith calculates additions to raise mash pH, so I suspect the Chalk and Baking Soda additions are just there to hit a Bicarbonate value. Unless you are brewing a dark beer and you need to raise the mash pH, don't add Baking Soda. Also, don't add Chalk (just click the "Exclude Chalk" option...chalk does not readily dissolve in the mash).

A lot of people that brew with RO do not add any Magnesium. 4.2 grams of Epsom Salt to hit 24 ppm of Magnesium seems like a lot.

 

[jrsdws]

Sorry this is for an American Pale Ale around 9.5-10srm

 

[VikeMan]

Sorry this is for an American Pale Ale around 9.5-10srm

Personally, for an APA built from distilled, I would build to about 80 ppm calcium by adding Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, with a roughly 2:1 ratio of Sulfate to Chloride. And acid as needed (if needed) to hit your target mash pH. Two salts and (maybe) an acid addition.

 

[jrsdws]

Personally, for an APA built from distilled, I would build to about 80 ppm calcium by adding Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, with a roughly 2:1 ratio of Sulfate to Chloride. And acid as needed (if needed) to hit your target mash pH. Two salts and (maybe) an acid addition.

So following this advice:

Calcium chloride = 2.00g
Gypsum = 3.50g

Final Calcium = 80ppm
Final Sulfate = 115ppm
Final Chloride = 57ppm
Final sulfate to chloride ratio = 2:1 (115/57=2.01)

 

[jrsdws]

Brewed a pale ale modeled after Boulevard pale ale yesterday using distilled and the additions in the previous post. Everything seemed to go well for the brew. I did not have to add any acid for mash pH adjustment, but landed right at 5.2.
Ward labs test kit ordered.
We'll see how his brew turns out in about 3-4 weeks.
I appreciate all of the help. More to come when I get that water report back I'm quite sure.

 

[Basspaleale]

I hope this isn't too far off topic but I'm hoping someone can help with a water question. I'm planning a German Pilsner Brew and would like to know if my water profile should be balanced or geared towards dryer/bitter chemistry?

 

[VikeMan]

I hope this isn't too far off topic but I'm hoping someone can help with a water question. I'm planning a German Pilsner Brew and would like to know if my water profile should be balanced or geared towards dryer/bitter chemistry?

For a German Pilsner, I recommend leaning toward sulfates and away from chlorides. Might be called "bitter" depending on your software.

Here's an old recommended profile from Kai Troester:

Ca	Mg	Cl	SO4
59​	8​	63​	89​

For a german pils, I would not be afraid to take the Cl down a little and the SO4 up a little from Kai's numbers. And personally, I wouldn't be building any Mg in.

 

[Basspaleale]

For a German Pilsner, I recommend leaning toward sulfates and away from chlorides. Might be called "bitter" depending on your software.

Here's an old recommended profile from Kai Troester:

Ca	Mg	Cl	SO4
59​	8​	63​	89​

For a german pils, I would not be afraid to take the Cl down a little and the SO4 up a little from Kai's numbers. And personally, I wouldn't be building any Mg in.

Thank you, that helps alot!

 

[Stanley Thomas]

As I mentioned earlier: personal tastes vary.

Relax don't worry Have a Homebrew !!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Relax don't worry Have a Homebrew !!

"The best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible.​

​

Be a HOMEbrewer!"​

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

It usually doesn't make sense to add Chalk and/or Baking Soda unless you need to increase alkalinity. Based on the SRM, I'm assuming this isn't for a stout or anything with a lot of caramel/roasted grains. So chalk/baking soda are probably not needed/useful.

Slide 9 of this presentation shows one approach to building from distilled water.

Thanks for posting that! Slide #3 jumped out at me -- I've got high hc03 water (259 ppm), and brewer's friend software predicts that my mash pH for a seriously dark stout is going to be 5.7, and to get it down to 5.55, I need to add roughly 7 grams of Phosphoric 10% per gallon of tap water, and frankly, it's getting expensive!

But like I said, slide #3 of that presentation you linked, makes me wonder if I really need to worry about that slight difference in mash pH because:
1 Better mash efficiency? I'm already regularly beating my 70% eff targets by a couple of gravity points (3 to 5 pts, usually)
2 Avoid overly dark beer? LOL, this sucker's already at 40 srm!
3 Reduce tannin extraction? Long as I'm under pH of 6.0, this shouldn't be an issue, is what I got from that...

So to recap: what I get from that slide (#3) is that as long as the mash pH isn't going to exceed 5.9 , I can probably stop bothering with the acid. Can anyone confirm? I suppose the real answer is to brew a small 1 gallon test batch...