Help me understand boiling at elevation

[Jtvann]

I got in to brewing while living in Death Valley. I was either at or below sea level. Now I'm living between 6500-7000. I can taste a noticeable difference in my beer. Boiling temp went from 212 down to 201 at most 202.

I use beersmith 3 to help with the IBU calculations. I can use the program to trust that side of it, but theres more to hops than just bitterness. I can scale the 60 min hop addition easy, but what about the 30 minadditions, or the whirlpool additions. Sure beersmith will give me a number for IBUs, but it won't help with flavor. That to me seems immeasurable.

Are there any good resources to help me scale my favorite recipes from below sea level to mile high brewing?

 

[day_trippr]

Have you taken a look at the video that Brad put up wrt High Altitude Brewing and Beersmith?

Aside from boil time I don't think there's a correlation between altitude and hop character incorporation. Ie your high altitude 170°F whirlpool is going to gain as much hop character as my 200' ASL wp...

Cheers!

 

[Jtvann]

I'll have to take a look at the video.

I was mainly concerned with hop additions after 60 and before flame out. I've heard that 60 min additions basically give nothing but bitterness. That can be calculated and adjusted.

30 min additions for example still give some bitterness, but are starting to give flavor. Adjusting up to compensate for the bitterness loss, could add too much flavor. I'm speculating with that comment, thus my question.

I'll take a look at the video, thanks for the reference.

 

[day_trippr]

There's this time-worn plot that is still probably more right than wrong.

The classic pale ale/ipa/etc recipes exploit these curves wrt early/mid/late additions to dial up both IBUs and other-than-bitterness character. And as these are all boil additions increasing altitude can be expected to attenuate the actual contributions unless compensated by extended duration at each interval (because you can't make your boil hotter, after all).

If Brad did things right, he's incorporated the altitude effects on IBU contributions throughout the boil. But there are no Beersmith metrics for flavor and aroma intensity. That's something the brewer needs to manage...and batch notes can be a big help in achieving a goal...

Cheers!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Keep in mind that volatile stuff will be more volatile at higher altitudes. So those delicate hop oils that burn off quick might be better found in a late dry hop.

 

[RPh_Guy]

To put it simply...

The 60 minute addition should be adjusted to hit your IBU target.

There's no reason to adjust the other hop additions for elevation on the first attempt at a recipe, in my opinion.

 

[Jtvann]

To put it simply...

The 60 minute addition should be adjusted to hit your IBU target.

There's no reason to adjust the other hop additions for elevation on the first attempt at a recipe, in my opinion.

That's the way I've started my calculations. Am planning on brewing a green flash type ipa next. Will have to see if that theory is correct.

 

[Soulshine2]

I got in to brewing while living in Death Valley. I was either at or below sea level. Now I'm living between 6500-7000. I can taste a noticeable difference in my beer. Boiling temp went from 212 down to 201 at most 202.

I use beersmith 3 to help with the IBU calculations. I can use the program to trust that side of it, but theres more to hops than just bitterness. I can scale the 60 min hop addition easy, but what about the 30 minadditions, or the whirlpool additions. Sure beersmith will give me a number for IBUs, but it won't help with flavor. That to me seems immeasurable.

Are there any good resources to help me scale my favorite recipes from below sea level to mile high brewing?

We moved from northern IL (roughly 330 above sea level ) to Northern Alabama (1300 asl) 1000 ft isnt much difference compared to yours but so far my brews I havent seen or tasted any big differences other than I've brewed more often here than I did there. I'm wondering if a difference in water quality (source) or mineral content is your primary issue concerning flavor.

 

[Jtvann]

Not the water for me. Death Valley water sucked and I built a RO profile. Where I am now, I'm using nearly pure high mountain spring water, and a ward labs test showed all minerals below my threshold for what I'd be adding back anyway.

Pretty sure my over 1 mile elevation change is to blame

 

[couchsending]

I live at about 6800 feet as well.

You'll want to extend your boil to 90 minutes regardless of malt.

For Pilsner malt the half life of SMM (the DMS precursor) goes from 35 minutes to 70 minutes
at the temp we boil at.

You're gonna get anywhere from 20-40% less utilization from hops so plan accordingly. I think
you'll need to do a little trial and error to figure that out. I started estimating around 20% less
and have since bumped to it closer to 40.

Obviously psi requirements are different too, but you probably know that.

 

[Jtvann]

I live at about 6800 feet as well.

You'll want to extend your boil to 90 minutes regardless of malt.

For Pilsner malt the half life of SMM (the DMS precursor) goes from 35 minutes to 70 minutes
at the temp we boil at.

You're gonna get anywhere from 20-40% less utilization from hops so plan accordingly. I think
you'll need to do a little trial and error to figure that out. I started estimating around 20% less
and have since bumped to it closer to 40.

Obviously psi requirements are different too, but you probably know that.

Good to know about the boil times and DMS. I don't brew many lagers or use pilsner malts, but I did just brew one a few days ago. I'll keep an eye out to see if I notice any off flavors.

Not sure what you mean about psi requirements. Everything else is behaving normal.

 

[couchsending]

Good to know about the boil times and DMS. I don't brew many lagers or use pilsner malts, but I did just brew one a few days ago. I'll keep an eye out to see if I notice any off flavors.

Not sure what you mean about psi requirements. Everything else is behaving normal.

I boil every beer for 90.. with lagers I generally decoct once, otherwise I might even boil them longer. Beers got substantially better as soon as I upped them to 90.

At higher elevations you need more PsI to get to a certain level of carbonation. Sea level it’s say 12 PsI at 38 to get to 2.5... my elevation it’s 15 PSI.

 

[passedpawn]

I boil every beer for 90.. with lagers I generally decoct once, otherwise I might even boil them longer. Beers got substantially better as soon as I upped them to 90.

At higher elevations you need more PsI to get to a certain level of carbonation. Sea level it’s say 12 PsI at 38 to get to 2.5... my elevation it’s 15 PSI.

That doesn't sound right. The pressure your regulator reads is "gauge" pressure, which means above atmospheric. IOW, 12 for you and 12 for me (in FL at sea level) should produce exactly the same carbonation.

I could be wrong somehow, I've never lived far from the water, I'm just going by intuition here.

 

[couchsending]

1 PsI increase per 2000 feet

 

[passedpawn]

1 PsI increase per 2000 feet

Yes, atmospheric pressure increases with altitude. Your regulator regulates 12psi above that. So no matter what your atmospheric pressure is, the beer will be at 12psi (above atmospheric pressure). That ensures a certain volume of CO2 in there. I still stand by my statement that you should not need to adjust your regulator, regardless of your elevation.

 

[BobBailey]

I'll have to take a look at the video.

I was mainly concerned with hop additions after 60 and before flame out. I've heard that 60 min additions basically give nothing but bitterness. That can be calculated and adjusted.

30 min additions for example still give some bitterness, but are starting to give flavor. Adjusting up to compensate for the bitterness loss, could add too much flavor. I'm speculating with that comment, thus my question.

I'll take a look at the video, thanks for the reference.

Setting the altitude in your equipment profile should make adjustments to all boil additions. They all contribute to bitterness, but to lessening degrees as you get closer to the end of the boil. Post boil additions are affected by time and temperature, not altitude.

Remember, whichever formula you select for hop utilization, you aren't getting a true representation. Instead, you're getting uniformity as long as you stay with the same formula.

In addition to the altitude adjustment you can also adjust the utilization number down from it's default value of 100% in order to more closely match your perception of bitterness to the calculated IBUs. Lowering the % will cause the program to read less IBUs for the same hop addition.

As for flavor and aroma increases from the later boil additions, I doubt you'd tell the difference with the small adjustments for altitude. If you feel that you can, just add the amount you would have used at sea level and make up the difference in IBUs in the bittering addition. ​