Help me dial in this Erdinger Clone

[calgary222]

My wife, who doesn't drink a lot of beer is interested in me brewing a Hefe and specifically an Erdinger clone. I haven't had much luck in finding one, although there was a 8 year old discussion started by @damnyankee and supported by @jaba and others which set me on this path:

20 gal (start 22 gal) All Grain:

15 lb Pilsner Ger (40%)
23 lb Wheat Ger (60%)

152 degrees Single Infusion 152 degrees - RIMS

60 min boil
2.0 oz Tettnang 30 min
2.0 oz Hallertauer 15 min

Bavarian Wheat Yeast 3056 (big starter) (chosen for slight less banana and clove than other Witbiers)

Beersmith spits out:
Gravity: 1.047
Bitterness: 10.1
Color: 3.4 SRM

For those that know Erdinger, do you think this is close? I don't do a lot with wheat, do you think rice hulls are a good idea (especially with the RIMS)?

If I nail it, I am hopeful there will be fewer questions about the brewing bits that arrive in the mail on a regular basis...

 

[homebrewer_99]

I lived in Bavaria for 9 years...drank, er, researched a lot of HWs. I've had Ayinger in Aying, Erdinger in Erding, etc., and enjoyed every one of them. But I prefer my HWs on the sweeter side like Julius Echter, Maisel's Bamberger Weise and Roth from Wurzburg. So sweet that I only use 2AAUs for a 5 gals batch.

Why are you not doing a rest at 122F?

I don't know anything about a RIMS system so I can't answer your question there, but I use 8 oz of rice hulls for my batches.

EDIT: OK, I'm doing some research for you on the German forum (hobbybrauer.de).

Here are a couple of the comments:

One brewer states Wyeast 3056 is not the right yeast, another brewer says Erdinger uses Weihenstephaner 68...followed by a third brewer saying they (personally) use Wyeast 3056 for their clone. Sounds like we've gone full circle.

IBUs between 8-10 is referenced.

Another stated: Wenn ich Nelke möchte, trinke ich Glühwein, möche ich Banane trinke ich Bananenshake. (Translation: When I want cloves I'll drink Gluhwein, when I want banana I'll drink a banana shake).

 

[calgary222]

Well, as I understand it, the rest would help with the production of 4-vinyl-guaiacol (4VG) which is a precursor to the clove flavors present in this style. However, the Erdinger apparently has less of the clove flavor present so I thought best to skip(?) This is also why I thought this would be a good yeast... less clove.

Maybe best to keep the less clovey yeast but introduce a rest? opinions welcomed...

RIMS is just a recirculation system past a heating element which if I do do a rest, would assist in bringing up the temperature. I was asking about the hulls because I am guessing they are necessary with the wheat to prevent a stuck mash and in my case, potentially damaging the pumps...

Cheers!

EDIT: I love the translation 99!

 

[Smellyglove]

You need to go lower for a 4-VG rest. Like 38-43C. 50C is a great temp for the head. I usually dial my rest to last for 15 minutes. I use HERMS with about 1C/minute, so you need to take into account how fast you do your steps. A 72C step is also good for body. Erdinger isn't "full bodied" comparing to for instance a Paulaner, but you still need some body to counteract the higher carbonation a hefe should have, especially with an OG of 47. 72C is also good for head.

You're SRM seems a bit low. Due to not using any caramalts. My wild guess is that for an Erdinger I'd want to target 10-11 EBC. You can boil longer for more maillard/body and color, but this will give you less head as you'd coagulate more of the head positive proteins, and also body.. the last one is funny, boil longer for more body due to maillard, but coagulate away more body positive proteins, you need to find a middle way for a longer boil.

 

[calgary222]

OK - so if I am deciphering the above:

10 - 15 min 40C / 104F

10 - 15 min 50C / 122F

20 - 30 min 66C / 151F (Do I need this one or will a slow rise from last step to next cover off during an hour?)

10 min 72C / 162F

My RIMS currently is running on 120V so at 1/4 power... thinking I may need to wire it to 240 to accomplish the steps (or reserve a few gallons of boiling water)...

Adding a pound of Cara40 will get my SRM up to a 4.5 - good idea or better to do something like a 75 min boil?

 

[homebrewer_99]

FWIW, I use WLP300 for a nice banana aroma and flavor with no cloves.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'd just start at 50C /122F. I don't know how much a pound is in terms of percentages, but maybe about 5-6% Cara EBC 40 should give you a slight bump in color and body. You can do 50 - 66 - 72 I guess.

I'm biased towards what I do myself..
I like them sweeter full flavor so I do 65C 30 mins (my own take on herrmann verfahren), 40C 20 min, 50C 10-15 mins, 63C 30 min, 72C 60 mins then mashout. Targeting 0.6million*plato*ml with 3068, 1.25C rise pr six hours up to 24C, keep and hold for 6-8 days, bottle with speise containing WLP380 yeast, leave at about 21C for about 10-12 days, store at 10C for three weeks.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Lots of solid advice so far, but one piece I have not seen-- start with a smaller batch than 20 gallons! If this is a new recipe, and it does not meet your (or your wife's) desires, that is a TON of beer to schlep through.

Personally I would start with 2.5-5g batches to dial in the exact beer you are after.

 

[calgary222]

Thank you both - I appreciate the feedback. Knowing my wife is not fond of strong flavors, I think I will stick with the 3056 (appreciate the research 99).

Smellyglove, I've never done a stepped mash before and moving 20 gallons up and down may be beyond my immediate capabilities, particularly because I am not running HERMS, just RIMS.

I dropped the Cara40 to Cara 20 - she will expect it to look light and with the Cara40 I was pushing over 5.5 SRM, keeping it at 5% should keep the body there.

So, for simplicity sake, I will do the following:

20 gal (start 22 gal) All Grain:

15.2 lb Pilsner Ger (40%)
20.9 lb Wheat Ger (55%)
1.9 lb Cara20 (5%)
2.0 lb Rice hull (presoaked)

Step Mash:
10 min 50C/122F
40 min 66C/151F
10 min 72C/161.5F

75 min Boil
2.0 oz Tettnang 30 min
2.0 oz Hallertauer 15 min

Bavarian Wheat Yeast 3056 (big starter)

Beersmith spits out:
Gravity: 1.047
Bitterness: 10.1
Color: 4.4 SRM


I learned a few new things today - thanks guys!

Kevin, I have two older kids at home, not perfect beer never goes to waste and I am not set up to do a test batch in the kitchen (my kettle is 30 gallons).

I will hopefully remember to resurrect the thread in a month with the results!

Cheers,
Kerry

 

[homebrewer_99]

We'll be waiting for the updates....